If Haye beats Wlad and Vitali back to back is he a top15 HW?

If you think I'm saying Wlad needs to take more punches to prove something, I'm not. I'm not here to take a moral stances on whether taking punches is good or bad, I'm just making a point. When talking about what made him great. It's his will, adaptability, and inner calmness and self-belief. His durability and stamina are just icing on the cake, and are inter-related.

Okay, but when I say I don't think he's really that special, don't tell me his opposition is making him appear worse than he is. Not that you may be wrong. But what I'm saying is I see things, and things opponents aren't capitalizing because they don't know how to. That's all...

Like what? Sweat flying off the head? The sound of the punches? We see it, we just don't feel it.

I didn't say this. You're right, he does. I'm saying he's weak when NOT playing the initiator. And his opponents allow this of him. Knowing you, I know you'll reply by saying maybe it appears they because that's how dominant he is... or something to that effect. I know this isn't the case, so I won't argue about this unless you want to go into more specifics.

Absolutely.

Agreed

Never deliberately, no.

He's infinitely better than Valuev. But Valuev, an even bigger Wlad essentially fought even with a lot of the opposition Wlad's blowing away merely because of his size. The guy didn't even have much amateur background (If any). That might say a little about the opposition.

Maybe I should. You know, understanding boxing and proper tactics doesn't mean I could be a trainer. Just like a movie or art critic may know what is good art or what takes a good movie. Doesn't mean they could or couldn't make one.

I mean, you could notice a decline in the quality trainers and fighters. And thus, the weaknesses in fighters nowadays. Doesn't mean I could go out there and necessarily be a fighter. The condescending retort of "If you know what's best then why don't you do it" is tiresome. As if everyone in the world hasn't criticized a movie knowing they couldn't do better. It's like those who say people can't understand boxing without having boxed. It's just not true.

 

Wlad, and to some degree Vitali, are true anomalies. Wlad has so thoroughly mastered distance that if he can not jab and set up the right, and you close, down go his arms and then and you are clinched. And given all the anecdotal evidence, from people even I know who have sparred with him, dude is strong as ****. You don't think that perhaps some of those folks who actually earn their living training fighters for world championship bouts have ever actually thought of this?

Rewatched the fight today, and I have to say, Wlad was never even remotely hurt. The one time he clinched for any duration was the 12th, a round when any reasonable fighter who had the fight in the bank would certainly clinch. I'll say this, Wlad's footwork, once he gets tagged, is awkward. He looks all the world as the stumbling giraffe most over-tall heavies look most of the time. But anymore he quickly recuperates and gets back on his mindnumbing plan of success.

The Brewster defeat was 7 YEARS AGO. Were people still doubting Louis in 42 as he beat Baer and Simon for his loss to Schmeling in 36? Were people still bringing up Choynski when Johnson was ready to go against Jeffries? It's the classicist prerogative to assign differing standards of excellence to different eras. You have so fully succeeded in this undertaking, I applaud you.

Furthermore, it wasn't so much Brewster's pressure in their first fight but Wlad's lack of understanding and controlling pace, a problem he had for much of his early career but which his talent let him avoid addressing. He gassed himself mentally and physically. That's not an excuse; I am merely pointing out his flaws earlier in his career.

 

Part of the reason Haye & Boothe didn't even consider taking the fight toward Wlad (Because of all the clinching), if they even knew how too. You know, there's a mid-inside range before Wlad goes octopus. It's not too difficult to side-step. Even Haye, a fighter inclined to counter-punch with no comfort leading did this at the end of the 8th round. Without bringing up Ali, don't you think all that holding, grabbing, and leaning is ****ing illegal? I imagine Wlad would have to adapt or get docked serious points if he did this in some time machine fight with past greats... assuming the fight was held in America.

Only his actions speculated if he might've been a little buzzed in the 12th round because he held on for the longest of time in that moment of the fight. Of course, Wlad is smart. I don't know any other fighter who would be so-so motivated to hold on for so long like they were hurt... unless they actaully were hurt. I won't call it unreasonable, but it's not atypical like you like to make it out.

Do you not see the subtlety of my point, though? That Haye's athleticism and speed alone, along with a simple feint hook created his best punch of the fight. You say it's not that easy, and I show you an exact example of Haye initiating, creating, and being his most unpredictable in the fight and landing merely because of his athleticism. And you saw it's not that easy. Of course, the right strategy takes more risks. But the alternative, countering from a long distance is a Mission Impossible strategy. Wlad got hit by that and was like embarrassed and was his most offensive after that in the fight. He should've been.

I don't think it's that spectacular when he jumps back after being worried of being tagged either. But agreed.

Funny seeing how you bring up the Choynski defeat every so often out of the woodwork to prove Johnson's "overrated" status. As you have with Marshall against Liston. Well done.

I still don't see your comparisons as quite the same. Johnson was 22 years old and probably weighing around 170 or so pounds (I can't find the newspaper reports of the weights. Wonder what they were). Not even a fully developed HW at the time. But shame on me for bringing up a examples of a 28-29 year old Wlad, who was thought to be in the prime of his life before Corrie Sanders wiped the floor with him.

Yes, you make a fair point. But these are really the only examples of that style that he has faced. Some suggest now that Wlad at 35 is already declining. I wonder what his ultimate peak would consist to satisfy a consensus. It's not difficult to wonder why the bigger brother, Vitali takes on the more aggressive minded fighters like Arreola, while Wlad fights the more boxer oriented fighters like Chambers. That's here nor there I guess.