Who has the better resume, Wlad or Frazier?

FRAZIER

Resume also includes losses!!!

People forget about this all the time when measuring resumes. Wlad's hinder him greatly compared to Frazier's defeats.

H2H, Wlad wins much, much more often than not vs. Frazier.

 

I aint talkin about Buster Douglass or Mike Tyson.

 

Thats all Im saying. Its not his fault but its dam sho his good luck.

 

I wish people would stop saying "Take out Frazier's win over Ali". How the **** is that an argument?! It's the best win ever at heavyweight, without question. It's one of the top 5 wins ever in boxing. It's a win over one of the best 5 fighters, in any weight, in history. It was that fighters first loss.

How the **** can you say "well, ignore that". No. Don't ignore that at all, give that fight the respect that it deserves. It was a monumental performance and the best win ever in the heavyweight division and to ever ignore that, purely to make your case stronger, is ****ing ridiculous.

Idiots.

 

Excellent point. You can't just remove that win from his record, it wasn't a fluke or some random moment of excellence like when Douglas beat Tyson.

It proves what level of fighter Frazier truly was. He beat Muhammad Ali people, Muhammad Ali!

He would beat many other great fighters as well based upon that performance. Every time I watch that fight I am amazed at the ferocity and intensity he brought into the ring, it was very special indeed.

 

Exactly. What sort of ****ing moron thinks removing a hugely significant win from a fighters record serves any purpose? It's a completely stupid point. You can't just remove a win because it doesn't suit your argument.

To ignore a loss is as moronic as creating a win out of thin air. Why don't we pretend Wlad knocked out Joe Louis in 15 seconds? How about Wlad schooling Holmes? These points would be laughed at, of course, yet it is equally as moronic as saying "...yeah, I'm going to ignore the best win in heavyweight history because it doesn't suit my argument and the rest of Frazier's career isn't amazing".

I wonder what the IBHOF would think if this band of Wlad fans want to remove wins from records because it doesn't suit them.

 

You judge a fighter's career on a whole,not just by a single victory.Ken Norton also holds a victory over Ali,and,unlike Frazier,he was never convincingly bettered over the course of a trilogy,either.In many people's eye's,he deserved all three victories over Ali.Does that mean Norton is great,too? No,it doesn't.Rahman and McCall own the type of victory that Wladimir Klitschko hasn't even come close to duplicating - are they greater than Wlad? **** no.



The truth is,Wlad was a greater champion than Frazier ever was.Wladimir has consistently fought top ten rated opposition since he took control of the division after beating the top heavyweight in Byrd.The only men who weren't rated was a mandatory in Ray Austin and a late replacement in Hasim Rahman.Everybody else was rated.


Frazier,meanwhile,was the classic opportunist and an obvious cherry picker.He ducked out of the WBA's heavyweight tournament while almost every other top heavyweight entered,and he shamelessly avoided the punchers of his era.Had he not been forced into it(his fight with Foreman),that fragile glass chin may never have been exposed.



The fact that people are so quick to point out one single victory on Frazier's resume to prove his superiority shows how utterly lacking his resume is,and just how entirely dependant he is on Ali.The fact is,Frazier doesn't have a legacy of his own - it's limited to an association with another man.It would be amusing if it wasn't so completely pitiful.

 

unlike frazier he was also flattened by garcia and shavers atschatsch

i think wlad has a **** resume, let's remove the byrd victory and he's only been champ for 2 years. now i hope you understand how ******ed that logic is. please tell me you do.

 

Jimmy Ellis x2 (Expcted to out Box Joe)
Jerry Quarry x2 (expected to be very close)
Ali (Expected by most to be an easy Ali win.)
Ron Stander X
Terry Daniels X
Bob Foster...made the mistake of trying to crsck with Joe....very tall with great Lt. Heavy power)
Dave Zyglewicz X
Oscar Bonavena (this one too, everyone knew it would be tough...and it was tougher than expected.)
Manuel Ramos X
Buster Mathis ( A very good fight)
George Chuvalo (Everyone knew it would be real tough, but Frazier was well favored.)

Dave Zyglewicz, Manuel Ramos I forgot completely.
Daniels and Stadler for Fraizer don't count...he was reaching down to number 12....looking for some pocket change waiting for Forman or Lyle. Back then with out so many belts, when a champ reached down under the top 5 he had beaten everyone else or was looking for a tune up fight.

Today with 4 belts Daniels and Stadler would be number six in most belts' line up. So weak is the modern belt systems.

We was very disapointed in Joe for stuping so low.

Now I was always a Frazier fan.....
I was a white guy alone in an Ali section of the movie theater when the fight was showed.
I told them I rooted for Moore vs the Rock, was still a Patterson fan, and Liked Frazier.
So there I was hollaring Whopp him Joe....and no one hated me.....
Today with the hate driven fans of today....?????

I have them about the same....Wlad has the better reseme over all; it's just a few of the guys were really given a chance to beat Frazier. So were they better than the later fighters or was it Joe was not as dominate as Wald.

I really liked the Buster Mathus fight....you just don't know how big 235-50..pounds was back then.
I have it in my mind he was 250 pounds of blubber ..could be he was 'only' 235 pounds of blubber. . Everyone said if he'd come in at 225....the later 'real monster' weight of Forman, he'd won.
He could duck (one of the best Heaweight duckers I'd ever seen) and move; was quick in the ring.....he missed his time...today instead of being remembered as a fat sack of blubber, he'd just be normal.

That was a very good fight like Bonavana also. He did real well against Ali.....like many blind folks of today who see what they want....I had Bonavana up until the KO. IMO the second best KO that Ali had after Liston....Forman was thrid, Lyle 4th...because that was one short almost upercut hook, that took the starch right out of Bonivania...who should have taken a quick knee, right after.

 

Joe Frazier 13-4-0 (8.)

Bonavena (x2), Machen, Daniels, Jones, Chuvalo, Ramos, Quarry (x2), Ellis (x2) , Ali (x3), Foreman (x2), Bugner.

Frazier vs top 10 oppostion. only losses coming to Ali and Froeman.

 

Difference is,I'm not pointing to a single victory as a basis for rating one fighter over another.And Frazier became champion when he beat Ellis(a man coming off of a year and a half layoff),not when he beat Ali.


Frazier had a three year run as a champion and fought just two rated contenders during that time.Wladimir has now ruled for over five years,fought ten times,with only two men(Rahman,a late replacement,and Austin,a mandatory challenger) not being rated contenders.

Daniels,Jones,Machen and Ellis(the second time) were not rated in the top ten.

 

how many times has wlad defended in the last 3 years? my oppinion is both these guys ruled for 5 years (joe 68-73, wlad 06-11) against a similar level of opposition. it is the ali victory that seperates them.

they had appeared in the top 10. a similar beakdown for wlad is

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Frazier managed to hide he was almost blind in his right eye...the non swollen one...That is why they stopped the fight in Manila.
Being near blind in that eye can explain his problem with Foreman too....but that was mostly taking him too easy the first fight...and coming in too heavy. Yes...5-8 pounds can be much too heavy....

look Wlad went down 8 pounds to be light and quick vs Haye.

Liston went to 209 and then the Ali fight was canceled because of the appendix operation of Ali. Liston came in at 212 the for that fight. 209 was Liston's best weight to be quick and powerfully at.

Holms came in at his best weight of 209 vs heavy 217 Ali....

If you want to go back to best fighting weight. Billy Conn often weighed 167 as best weight as Lt. Heavy Champ.

Everyone saw the basic weakness of Forman's boxing. Joe was not at best shape....being complacent. He weighed less for the last fight...but the damage was done.

That win gave George all the confidence for the second one too.

Frazier had had a very good right hand too. Then he stopped using it. I had always wondered why. The blind eye explains that.


And Mathis was more than what some think.... Mathis beat Joe in the Olympic trials, and then broke his hand, so Joe took his place, and broke his hand too, but didn't tell anyone about it.

Were both pretenders at the time....no...both were contenders. They telivised the fight. Pretenders don't get main event free Television back then. Mathis never amounted to much after Joe whipped him...but for @8 rounds that was one very good fight.
I'd loved to have seen Mathis as skinny as Foreman. (that's a joke.....in many are not aware of how much a real Monster Forman was...at 225 back then. 215 was Big and Huge like Liston.)

 

Imo wlad fans should be humblely patient. Respect wlad's up and coming opponents. Chances are in a few years everyone will be singing from the same hymn sheet about wlad.

So fans of his, show some patience