Elmer Ray: A top 30 heavyweight of all time

June 1946, note the height and age claims.

"Ray a forgotten man,
Says John M. Lee writing for Continental Features concerning
Elmer (Violent) Ray, a good heavyweight from Florida who will
be remembered for several good performances turned in. while on'
the West Coast ... "A five foot ten slugger who. came up the hard
way, and who has demonstrated that he doesn't know the meaning
of fear has been trying frantically to crack the New York market
for some time. Through his manager. Tommy O'Loughlin, the 193
pound heavy is telling the world that all of the rest of -the heavyweight
boys are afraid to fight him, and from where I sit, it seems
that he is right. According to my records, he has shown twice in
the Big Apple. At the St. Nick's arena he took a little over two
minutes of the first round to rock-a-bye Johnny White, and in a
Garden semi-final, he knocked Shamus O'Brien off in four rounds.
He's the fighter everybody talks about, but for whom, (as they
say in Brooklyn), nobody does nothing. A native of Hastings, Florida,
his name is Elmer Ray, and the sportswriters have knicknameS
him "Violent." with the approval of most of the heavies
who have made the mistake of climbing into the same ring with
him. Back home, Elmer works as a farmer, a trade he learned early
in life, and to which he will retire soon unless some of the big boys
can be induced to make a date with him and k«ep it in some of
the Bigx City's arenas. ,
Right now, Violent Elmer and his scrappy Irish manager are
camping in New York hoping to have some attention paid to them
before Ray, who already has achieved 34 years in this vale of tears
and disappointments, finds it necessary to start drawing his old
age pension. Although the big metropolis has shown little interest
in the guy, he has pleased ring addicts all over the country, drawing
record houses in Boston, California, Detroit and Miami. His recent
victories total forty, thirty-seven of which were by the knockout
route: He polished off Colin Chaney in a little over one minute.
Chaney is the conquerer of Al Hooseman, who knocked the stuffings
out of Lee Savold."

 

Sorry too tired to edit this but you'll get the ghist-again note the age claim.

November 18, 1946
"E l m er R ay o b v i o u s ly Is e m b a r r a s s ed by r e f e r e n c es to t he c o l o r f ul
tags such as "Viol ent" Ray and t he " F l a m e - t h r o w e r" p i n n ed on him by
s p o r t a w r i t e rs w ho h a ve w a t c h ed coim pi le up h is I m p r e s s i ve r e c o rd of
42 "knockouts anil s ix d e c i s i on t r i u m p hs In 48 c o n t e s t s. He'll a d m it t h at
he l i k es to fight and f a n c i es h ims e lf as q u i te a p u n c h e r. B ut o u t s i de
t he r i n g, he 's c o n t e nt to l et T o m my O'Loughl in, h is m a n a g er for the.
p a st four y e a r s, do t he t a l k i n g.
In b e t w e en c h a l l e n g es to Ch amp i on J oe L o u is and w h at a re
l a u g h i n g ly c a l l ed t he " l e a d i ng c o n t e n d e r s" of t he h e a v y w e i g ht d i v is i o n, O'Loughl in s l y ly g i v es o ut w i th g e ms of' i n f o r m a t i on c o n c e r n i ng
E l m er R a y 's r ing c a r e e r.
F r om O' L o u g h l in o ne l e a r ns t h at R ay h a i ls o r i g i n a l ly f r om H a s t i n g s,
F l a ., w h e re he w as born 29 y e a rs a g o. . . . He n e v er t o ok p a rt in an
amnte"ur bnut. . . . And he n e v er hnd i n s t r u c t i on In t he m a n ly a rt of
e e l f - d e f e n s e. . . . S i x t y - o ne b a t t l e - r o y al af fai rs t h r o u g h o ut t he S o u th
p r e p a r ed h im for h is r i ng c a r e e r. . . . He h i ts e q u a l ly h a rd w i th e i t h er
h a n d, a l t h o u gh he b e l i e v es t h at he g e ts a bit m o re l e v e r a ge Into* h is
l e ft h o o k. . . , T he five fighters w ho w e nt t he r o u te w i th R ay w e re
k n o c k ed o ut In s u b s e q u e nt r e t u rn m a t c h e s. . . . T h at t he r e c o r ds
(tint F l e i s c h e r ' s) fail to c r e d it R ay w i th f o ur k n o c k o u ts w h i ch w o u ld
b r i ng h is t o t al to 46. . . . He o w ns a h o me in M i n n e a p o l is w h e re he
l i v es w i th h is w i fe a nd s i x - y e a r - o ld d a u g h t er . . .! —PAP*

 

Just reading up on Ray, he appears to be just a tad behind Charles and Walcott and ahead of the next lot like Baksi and Savold. He appears to have dodged Sheppard himself, not a bad idea!
Fights with Conn, Bivins, Sheppard and Mauriello would have giving us a better idea of his worth but I can't argue him up into top 30, unless you think the 1940-49 period was a golden period.

 

Well, it is certainly nice to see that my name and influence have not disappeared from these forums, even in the face of two-and-a-half years of almost complete silence on my part. My attention has drifted from the fight game in recent times, largely owing to the maddening constipation at the top of the game, and that especially at heavyweight. The belated materialization of the Klitschko-Haye fight roused me from my slumber, as much of a disappointment as the encounter itself may have been.

So, regarding the subject matter of this thread, I say that I believe Ray has a case for status as a top 30 all-time heavyweight, though the matter is highly debatable. I do think that he belongs in the top 50. To address some of what has been said in the discussion:

I disagree; I consider Ray special for a couple of reasons.

First, note that, over a span running from 1943 up into 1947, Ray compiled a streak of 50 consecutive wins with 44 knockouts, which included his win over Walcott, a demolition of Savold, and a 17-consecutive-knockout tear. The streak was only broken by a close decision loss to Walcott in early 1947, after which Ray won seven more in a row, including one over Charles, before losing a rematch against Ezzard. All told, Ray had a span of over five years and 60 fights in which he lost only to Walcott and Charles, both of whom he also beat, and knocked out literally everyone he fought aside from those two (a few guys, such as Perk Daniels, managed to go the distance with him at some point, but were knocked out in rematches).

During this time, his manager, Tommy O'Loughlin, was putting up large money offers for various contenders (Nova, Mauriello, etc.) to get in the ring with him, and they were consistently turning them down. I also find, having sifted newspaper accounts spanning much of this run, that Ray was quite impressively consistently dominant; now, admittedly, a substantial percentage of his opponents were what one might call "tomato cans" (understandable when one is having 10 or more fights a year and being ducked by most of the top contenders), but quite a few of these were also against very respectable opponents, and I find not one instance of Ray having a disputed decision or having to come from behind or off the floor from the time his peak run started up until we get to the Walcott fight in 1946- account after account describes him crushing opponents, blowing them away or winning shut-outs in the rare event that they manage to take him to a decision.

Keeping all of this in mind, I think we can make a very crucial distinction between Elmer Ray and a Rex Layne or Lou Nova; all-in-all, the evidence indicates to me that Ray put together a period of several years in which his overall standard of performance was consistently top drawer, to the point at which he was on a par with Walcott and Charles. For comparison, I would say the best run in Rex Layne's career would be the nine-fight streak he had during 1950-1951, in which he upset Walcott and subsequently managed wins over Bob Satterfield and Cesar Brion. Now, these are impressive results, but as noted, it was only one year and nine fights, and amid these nine fights we have a close split decision against Brion (which some observers scored for Brion), an off-the-floor, come-from-behind win over Satterfield, and a split decision against fringe contender Henry Hall. Immediately after this, Layne was resoundingly knocked out by Marciano and Charles, and beaten soundly by journeyman Willie James the following February. This just does not appear to me anywhere near the kind of sustained high-level performance that Ray put forward in 1944-1947. As I see it, Layne was a guy who was a good, but limited fighter who was capable of pulling off a big win here and there, but not a reliably top-flight heavyweight; Ray seems in another class entirely.

 

WTF did Kallie Knoetze ever do to get mentioned in such company??? SMFH

 

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Great post. :thumbsup

 

On the contrary, I'd say your assessment of the two fighters supports the exact opposite conclusion.

As you basically acknowledged, Ray built his rep by padding his record with long stretches of fights against tomato cans. This, after his efforts to beat an actual contender in Turkey Thomspon had ended in failure with him getting crushingly KO'd. By contrast, Layne fought against much consistently tougher competition (as your post also basically acknowledged). Layne also beat Walcott decisively and impressively, whereas Ray was KO'd in their first fight, floored several times in their rubber match, and reportedly squeaked out only a razor thin decision in his lone win of the series. Layne also fought Charles when he was an actual HW, whereas Ray fought him when he was still only a LHW and hadn't really begun campaigning as a HW yet - and even then, he managed only a hotly disputed decision in their first fight, and was flattened in their rematch.

Given all this, I'd say the record clearly shows that Layne was the more "reliable" top tier HW, whereas Ray was the one who only sneaked out the occasional "flukey" win.

 

And yet when the time came that Ray was presented with a potential title shot at Louis, it was RAY's people who suddenly questioned whether their man was "ready" and suggested he needed to have a few more fights first.

From Ray's own manager in January 1947:
"He must, in fact, take on two or three stiff fights if he's going to tackle Louis. You can't get in fighting shape boxing bums and knocking 'em out in the first round or so. Before we get into the ring with Louis, Elmer definitely will have a couple of hard bouts under his belt."

 

Good list.

I'd also add Johnny Risko, Billy Conn, Harold Johnson, Tommy Loughran, Joe Jeanette, Sam McVey, Archie Moore, Tommy Gibbons, and possibly Nino Valdes to the list of HWs I would likely rate over Ray.

Also, I'd say Joey Maxim, Rex Layne, Fred Fulton, Bob Satterfield, Steve Hamas, Melio Bettina, Eddie Machen, Zora Folley, Tom Heeney, George Godfrey and others would all rate at least comparably with Ray.

 

Which is hardly any basis at all, since virtually every fighter that was ever a prospect at some point was highly regarded by someone somewhere.

Besides, in order to use that as a basis, you'd have to selectively ignore quite a few unfavorable opinions of Ray. For example:

"Beneath Louis and Conn, its monthly ratings list the outstanding heavyweights as Lee Oma, Joe Walcott, Tami Mauriello, Bruce Woodcock, Elmer Ray, Jimmy Bivins, Tommy Gomez, Joey Maxim and Phil Muscato. This is, to put it mildly, a bunch of asparagus ..."
-Chester L. Smith, June 1946

"Elmer has been seen once in the Garden and his performance succeeded in headline oblivion."
-Caswell Adams, November 1946

"Elmer Proves Not So Violent" (headline)
"After Friday night's show the general impression is that if either Ray or Walcott has designs on the Brown Bomber's crown, he had better show up equipped with a tommy gun and a flak vest.
...So far as the heavyweight title hopefuls are concerned, Ray is sending his broad beam around the landscape about as brightly as a slightly wet match on Broadway."
-Sid Feder, November 1946

"On what they showed Friday night, the Brown Bomber could dispose of the two men on successive nights."
-The Afro American, November 1946

"This followed Walcott's easy win against Elmer Ray in Miami, Florida, last night, Walcott winning on points after flooring Ray three times."
-The Indian Express, March 1947

"Dusky Joe Walcott protected his standing as one of the more prominent of a poor crop of heavyweights by outpointing Joey Maxim of Cleveland Monday night."
-Associated Press, June 1947

According to YOU, who avoids who is "pure speculation":

http://www.eastsideboxing.com/forum/showpost.php?p=9321431&postcount=131
:deal

Besides, how many "volumes" does it speak about Margarito that DeLaHoya and Mayweather both turned him down?

Actually, he went 1-2 against Walcott.

When was his "prime" then? When he couldn't even last 3 rounds with Walcott?

 

No, I said that a "substantial percentage" of his opponents, at least early in his winning streak, were what one might call "tomato cans." He also beat opponents such as Perk Daniels, Buddy Millard, Kid Riviera, Art McAlpine, Colion Chaney, etc., who are obviously not household names, but were dangerous fighters; to illustrate, Perk Daniels, who Ray shut out in their first meeting and knocked out in the rematch, beat Turkey Thompson shortly before facing Ray and would later beat Curtis "the Hatchetman" Sheppard twice. A significant number of Ray's wins were over guys who legitimately posed a threat to high-level heavyweight contenders, or at least high-level heavyweight contenders other than Ray.

Actually, Ray reportedly pitched a shut-out over Thompson for five-and-half rounds in their first meeting, before Thompson (who had already hit a hard low-blow earlier in the match) fouled out with a low shot in the sixth round, but was given a "No Contest." Thompson did catch Ray early and knock him out in the rematch, after which Ray and his manager Tommy O'Loughlin publicly pursued another encounter, but Thompson was not interested.

Note, further, that Ray improved after 1943; up until around this time, he was still regularly going the distance and occasionally having draws or losses against mediocre opposition. It was after this that he really picked up and began bludgeoning everyone. For a good illustration, look at his respective results against the same opponents prior to 1944 as compared with afterwards:
Larry Lovett beat Ray in 1943, but was knocked down eight times and out in three rounds in 1944.
Dixie Lee Oliver took Ray to a draw in 1942, but was blown away in one round in 1946.
George Fitch took Ray the distance in 1943, but was knocked out in five (suffering around seven knockdowns) in 1946.
Bob Smith took Ray the distance in 1942, but was wiped out in two rounds in 1944.
You are noticing the pattern, no doubt- and there are no counterexamples, either. The evidence indicates that Ray improved drastically between the early 1940s and the mid-late 1940s.

Layne had more managerial leverage and was given bigger fights more quickly owing to his race. He still fought plenty of "tomato cans" and fringe contenders of the variety Ray did, and the gap in their performance levels seems very clear-cut to me; Ray ran these guys into the ground time and time again, and if you sift through the newspaper accounts, you'll reliably find statements to the effect of "X was knocked down seven times and lost every round." Layne, by contrast, fumbled with them on a significant number of occasions against such foes even in or very close to his peak, as when he went to a split decision with fringe contender Henry Hall and lost to Willie James.

Walcott came in a few pounds overweight and fought a lackadaisical fight, essentially "going-through-the-motions," against Layne. You have, while accentuating Ray's losses, omitted the horrible beatings Layne took in the first and third Charles fights- and note that, while Ray may have lost the '47 and '48 rematches with Walcott and Charles, he was not destroyed the way Layne was; the Walcott loss was described by all accounts as a very close fight, and the Charles loss was tight up until shortly before the knockout. Moreover, Ray's win over Charles may have been disputed, but no more so than Layne's, which was fought in Layne's backyard and in which Layne's fellow Utahan Jack Dempsey was the referee and sole judge.

Between August 1946 and July 1947, Ray beat three staple top 10 fighters of his era within the span of less than a year- one was a demolition over Lee Savold, who had not been knocked out in five years and dozens of fights beforehand and would not be knocked out again for another five years afterwards (note that Layne never beat a long-time contender anywhere near this emphatically), and the other two were his tight decisions over Walcott and Charles. His only loss in this span was the MD to Walcott. Layne's wins over Walcott and Charles were about two years apart and separated by several crushing losses, and his only other win over someone who could be considered a "staple" top 10 fighter- as in, a guy who was a regularly-ranked contender for a period of years- was the off-the-floor, come-from-behind KO of Satterfield. Layne was a capable contender, but Ray was an elite.

 

There are certain similarities between the careers of Ray and Walcott.

Both were denied the advantages of proper career managment and financial suport early in their careers.

Both got their breaks late in their careers due to the second world war.

The difference is that Walcott had a style suited to longevity and Ray didn't.

Perhaps with the right breaks Ray could have done better.

 

Yet it is also true that there have been some sportswriters with unfavorable opinions of virtually every fighter who has ever graced the ring while he was coming up, including the likes of Marciano, Ali and Holmes. It is demonstrably true that some of the sportswriters you cite were underestimating the quality of performers in front of them; note the scoffing at the chances of "either Walcott or Ray" against Louis, which was proven unwarranted after Walcott actually got in the ring with the champ. Moreover, while we're on the subject, note that Ray did about as well against Walcott as Louis did, and in very close proximity chronologically-speaking.

He referred to Ray's results against "prime versions of Charles and Walcott," meaning their 1946-1948 encounters. The first Walcott-Ray fight was clear back in the 1930s when neither one of them (particularly Ray) was yet anywhere near his prime. In the 1946-48 span when Walcott, Charles and Ray were probably the three leading candidates for shots at Louis' title, Ray went 1-1 with both Walcott and Charles.

On this I agree. Ray's peak years were roughly 1944 or '45 through 1947. He was in his prime, as were Walcott and Charles, when they met in those years. The noteworthy thing is that, at this time, he was essentially on a par with Walcott and Charles- two future champions- head-to-head at the same time, and that this status was not contradicted by any of his other results; indeed, the blow-out of Savold in particular suggests that he was head-and-shoulders above the top tier of white contenders at the time (Mauriello, Nova, Baksi, Oma, etc.), who had been going life-and-death with Savold (he took out Lou Nova twice, decked Mauriello before losing decisions in both their meetings, took a decision off Baksi, etc.).