From 1978 to 1985, who were the ten best possible opponents for Holmes?

prime dokes was **** hot...for five minutes

 

I think that the list would have to include Coetze, Dokes, Thomas and Page somwhere.

 

Greg Page-1983
Gerrie Coetzee-1983-1984
Michael Dokes-1983
Pinklon Thomas-1984-1985
Big John Tate-That brief window in early '80 before the unfortunate downfall.

 

Pinklon Thomas was the only undefeated top heavyweight during Larry's reign. He could have been justified for a title shot any time after his August 1982 stoppage of Tillis.

I think Snipes won the match which got Witherspoon his shot at Holmes. It's only in hindsight of that surprising outcome and what followed that Tim's prestige soared, but Thomas beat him for the WBC belt just 15 months and four fights after Holmes.

Greg Page was commendably active, but he was officially defeated by Berbick, Witherspoon, Bey (three failed Holmes challengers) and Tubbs during Larry's reign, and I thought George Chaplin should have gone 2-0 against Greg prior to Berbick. That's at least six times he was bested during the Holmes era.

Holmes himself has indicated that his friend Dokes might have been the toughest opponent he didn't face during this period.

Coetzee lost twice by clean knockout, badly to Tate over the championship distance, and I tend to place his lack of confidence as the key reason for his draw with Thomas. (However, I thought he won the match which got Snipes his shot at Holmes.)

Leon Spinks eliminated Mercado for the best stoppage win of his HW career to legitimately earn his shot at Holmes. Leon seemed to have finally gotten himself on track, and many experts predicted an upset win for him.

John Tate would have been interesting. Larry wasn't the kind of puncher one might be expected to take John out.

Of the ones Holmes did take on, nobody else dominated the aggressive Shavers on the cards between 1969 and 1982 like Holmes did twice. And only Larry ever dominated Randy Cobb in a match that was clearly on the level. (Norton, Dokes and Buster Douglas had to settle for SDs and MDs against Tex. I viewed Gregg-Cobb, and was not convinced of the legitimacy of Cobb's performance or ninth round knockdown, although I'll allow that drugs were now taking their toll on Randall.)

Ocasio is overlooked, but he was coming off of back to back wins over Young, then would get robbed of a win over Dokes by Don King in his next competitive outing. Watch those four bouts, then you'll appreciate what Larry did in pounding Jaws apart with the power of his jab alone. Coming off of 20 rounds with Young, no heavyweight challenger of the last 30 years has been better prepared for dealing with a great jab.

Berbick lost horribly to Mercado in a professional rematch of an amateur points loss to Bernardo, but redeemed himself in taking out Tate in Montreal on the Duran-SRL I undercard. I agreed with judge Joe Swessel's 150-135 shutout for Larry over Trevor.

Holmes defeated eight world champions during his title run (Norton, Ocasio, Weaver, Ali, Berbick, Leon Spinks, Witherspoon and Smith). He defeated six more who held wins over world champions, Shavers (over Norton), Leroy Jones (over Weaver), Snipes (over Mustafa Muhammad, Coetzee and Berbick, although the "loss" to 'Spoon and "win" over Gerrie should be reversed), Cooney (ST Gordon by 4 round DQ, and big over Norton), Bey (over Page to get to Holmes), and Carl Williams (over Ocasio and Berbick).

Evangelista, Zanon and Lucien Rodriguez were all reigning European Champions when they challenged Holmes, so I have no issue with those shots.

Ten of his opponents during this stretch were undefeated at a time when the media was placing a premium on that goose egg.

Quick Tillis might get an honorable mention for the early 1980s. A quality surprise successful second WBA Title defense for Weaver, making Hercules the only other HW Champion between Ali and Michael Spinks to manage more than one successful defense.

Everybody talks about rematches he should have had, but Snipes is always excluded, while the more conclusively beaten Weaver gets mentioned continually. But Renaldo actually had Larry down without going down himself, and I really thought he was entitled to a return shot after out hustling Witherspoon on the inside.

My Dinner With Conteh would not ever forgive us if the following name was not included in this discussion. (And his debut, his only win, was a first round knockout over a guy who went on to raise some hell.):

http://boxrec.com/list_bouts.php?human_id=18644&cat=boxer

 

:deal good post.

 

How many times did this really happen? Here's a list I made showing the challengers Larry didn't face and what their records were vs the guys Holmes defended against, up until Spinks took the title away in 85:

- Dokes beat 4 guys who Larry gave title shots to, going 5-0-2.

-Witherspoon (I include him because a rematch would've been one of Larry' best defenses and should've happened) also didn't lose to anybody Holmes beat, going 2-0.

- Pinklon Thomas beat Spoon and Weaver. Berbick did beat Thomas - 15 fights after Holmes beat him. 2-1

- Coetzee was 2-2 against fighters Larry gave title shots to.

- Greg Page was 3-3, one of those losses was against Witherspoon.

Total record: 14-6-2, in favor of the guys Holmes didn't fight.

Out of all the times Holmes' challengers beat the above 5 names, only two of the victories took place before Holmes beat them- which reinforces my belief that Holmes beat unseasoned versions of many of his defenses because they didn't fight off against each other until after they fought Larry. That's why there's so many unbeaten records with few fights on his resume.

 

Holmes still proved himself the best heavy of his time though. I do agree,however,that he should have got fights with the likes of those men mentioned. He reached a phase when he allowed his business brain to take precedence over his fighting instinct. He was a worthy champion,and should have gone all out to unify the titles.

 

It was a messy, unsatisfying era, and unfortunately a sign of things to come. I'm never satisfied when I review Holmes' reign, despite reading the arguements of others. But he was clever and knew when to fight certain guys, how to get them before they got him, so to speak. But I think pre-Berbick Pinklon Thomas would've beaten him up.

 

The COetzee fight was signed.. I remember my uncle already having tickets....Forgot why it was called off??

THomas was a dangerous fight and Holmes knew it as he was already on the downside..But THomas didnt last long enough at the top, and Holmes lost to Spinks around that time.

Page was the only one i remember that Holmes could have fought but didnt ..Everybody else either lost,got sidetracked,,,Or Holmes had another big fight going.

 

Hmmm...a challenging question, Mendoza. I previously evaded your thread starting question in favor of offering information about content on his rivals and potential rivals.

What I'll offer here isn't set concrete, or even wet concrete, but mixing and pouring concrete, something I could wind up revising radically. I'll hazard an starting opinion, one subject to chance upon further consideration and feedback from other posters.

Much of what is said today is offered with benefit of hindsight, like Witherspoon's unexpected performance and subsequent title winning career path. I'm going to try offering the perspective of the time, such as how his title defenses were perceived going in. (Witherspoon was not seen as a serious challenger, while Leon Spinks was after Mercado.)

1) Cooney. This was the biggest match which could have taken place in the division during Larry's title run, and it did come off. Gerry was not the best heavyweight other than Holmes during the era, but he did wipe out Norton and Lyle inside of a round each, and was the only one to stop Young after Jimmy became a contender. He entered their match with the aura of an undefeated record and a reputation for huge power. Too bad Page, Thomas, Coetzee, Dokes and others didn't have Rappaport and Jones managing them. I thought Dokes lost Ocasio I, and Page Chaplin I & II, while all Gerry's wins were decisive.

2) Coetzee. Because it was actually signed and would have formally unified the title. Unlike Cooney, Coetzee had the skills and right hand necessary for Holmes to be on highest alert.

3) Norton. Ken was considered Numero Uno from the moment Leon Spinks upset Ali. I asked my father what he thought of Leon after the broadcast when we shut off the television and headed for our respective rooms for the night, and he said, "I can't see him beating Norton." Ken was the man, and those WBC judges had to be under enormous pressure to validate his receipt of the WBC belt by scoring in his favor.

4) Shavers. Larry gets heavily criticized for not having granted rematches, but he twice took on who many people consider the hardest puncher in boxing history, and dominated 21 of the 22 completed rounds. Holmes was the underdog to many in their first match, and Earnie entered the rematch with a world of confidence.

5) Ali. Never mind Muhammad's horrendous Thyrolar induced zombie act. We know in hindsight what a disaster that was, but going in, the demand was there, the money was there, and Ali still had the prestige. That it became a debacle was not Larry's fault. After Cooney, this was the biggest match he could have taken, and many thought Ali would pull another rabbit out of the hat. Dundee said he was in better shape than for the rematch with Leon, and in fact he did come in significantly lighter, adding to his credibility between the weigh-in and opening bell. (KO Magazine and other publications had written that Ali's weight was the key to the whole fight.)

6) Pinklon Thomas. Because he was the only other undefeated top HW through the end of Larry's reign. I watched him stop Tillis in eight with his left hand alone during August 1982, and he could have been justified for a shot at any time after. If he hadn't drawn with Coetzee to open 1983, he likely would have gotten a shot at Larry later that year.

7) Dokes. Holmes has indicated that Dynamite may have been the best HW he didn't fight during the 1980s. Because it was known they were friends, I'm not sure how well Don King could have promoted it. But he was supposedly the heir apparent when it was speculated Larry might be rapidly aging after Weaver and Shavers II.

8) Greg Page. He, Dokes and Cooney were the holy trinity of up and comers in the early 1980s after Weaver's shocking knockout of Coetzee seemingly eliminated the last top contender from controversial apartheid South Africa from the list. (Never mind that Gerrie had publicly spoken out against apartheid, and idolized Ali, while domestic rival Knoetze was actually a police enforcer for the apartheid regime who had gunned down a black youth in the leg during a 1977 Pretoria riot.) Although Chaplin made him look bad twice before Berbick derailed him, Greg did have the hype and resulting credibility necessary to be promoted as a viable title threat. Like the draw Thomas had with Coetzee, Greg's loss to former Holmes shutout victim Berbick came at the worst possible time, likely also costing him a shot at Larry in 1983.

I couldn't stomach the idea of the title changing hands in a scheduled limit less than the championship distance. Could Greg have beaten Larry after Snipes in 1983? He'd have had a better chance over 12 rounds than the championship distance. Yes, Holmes forfeited the WBC Title in favor of putting the IBF on the map, but abandoning a 12 round limit to resume championship distance title defenses is not necessarily taking the easy way out. (And in 1992, he insisted on having his match with Mercer be for 12 rounds rather than ten, something he richly deserves credit for at age 42.) The one time Greg went the championship distance, Tubbs beat him badly, and Page was utterly exhausted at the end of Chaplin II.

9) Leon Spinks. He legitimately earned this shot by stopping the then streaking huge and deadly Mecado. Having been the last undisputed HW Champion, held the unique pedigree of dethroning the GOAT over the championship distance in doing so. Many predicted that Leon would again attain the crown in another upset.

10) John Tate. The successor to Ali's WBA Title had seemingly solved the problem of dealing with crushing power in defeating Mercado, Knoetze and Coetzee. For 14 rounds, he'd seemingly managed Weaver better that Holmes had, although Larry dropped and stopped Hercules. Holmes-Tate was a highly viable unification prospect until a fateful left hook struck John upside the head with 55 seconds to go.

Weaver should be acknowledged for taking the undefeated Quick Tillis out of this equation in Mike's final successful defense. Yes, Hercules was robbed of his title by Joey Curtis, then shafted by a draw in the rematch, but he deserves tremendous credit for winning three straight WBA Title bouts he was expected to lose, becoming the most credible alternative to Holmes during Larry's reign. But Mike was recognized as a reputable opponent for Holmes only in hindsight.

 

I like it. :good

 

1978-1985

1. Ken Norton
2. Tim Witherspoon
3. Pinklon Thomas
4. Earnie Shavers
5. Greg Page
6. Tony Tubbs
7. Mike Weaver
8. Michael Dokes
9. Gerry Cooney
10. Gerrie Coetzee



Holmes missed out on 5