Rate these 5 very good fighters,who fell a litle short of achieveing greatness.

Im talking a combonation of HTH talent and resume.. All had some big or very good wins.. But had losses that hurt them.. I thnk everyone (except Maybe macnini had a spot in the pfp top 10 at one time)
All Popular and action packed fighters.

Vargas- Short prime and rushed,, but had very good wins early on.. And along with hatton the only one who fought 2 atg in their prime,,,I though he held hes own with Tto,ODLH betteer than Hattonvvs Pac,May.. Big wins over Quarteyand Winky(i had it even) Also solid ones over ,Prime Yori boy and Solid Marquez,Rivera,Castallejo.

Hatton- His win over Tszyu was big and he fought a great fight but we all know Tszyu was faded. .. best guys he beat were Tszyu,Mallinaggi,Lascanzo,Collazo,Urango..faded PHillips.. somewhat simlar class of opponnents but like Vargas top 2 better and he was just a better overall skill wise for me...Castillo was a big name but he was literally washed up and seemed to show up for the payday for that one.

Mayorga-Arguably the 2 best wins at least tied with Vargas...OVer a prime Forrest 2x,faded Vargas,Lewis,Piccirello.. Became a pernenial loser,.. All the guys on this list were better schooled,better boxers and than the raw
Mayorga...But He hiad the best chin and Punch in his prime. Took to many breaks later on too give him any chance vs the big names he lsot to later on...Even rhough rusty he gave Mosley ttrouble till the 12th,did ok vs Cotto. and i think would have beat him in his prime.. Tito,ODLH outclased him.

McGuigan.. Beat atg Pedroza but like Hattons win.. a faded atg.. On paper he had big wins.over Pedroza,Laporte,Taylor,,, and a solid Cabrera. Dont mean to take nothing from Barry but im not sure he beats the best version of any of those guys... Pedroza as said earlier past it..,,. Laporte was hot and cold and Mcguingan got the lazy laporte who didnt let his hands go, not the one who gave chavez,Sanchez,Pedroza tough fights or kod Lockridge..... His win over speedy and talented Bernard Taylor was impressive, Taylor took an early lea but Mcguigan broke hm down after 8 rounds in front of his home crowd.,,Burnt out Taylor verrsion? Maybe but Barrys brutal body attack had something to do with it.... And i dont want to hear Barrys excuses for the Cruz loss...The yound Cruz foiught a smart fight and came on good late,no luck win Cruz was a pretty good fighter.... Cruz had to fight in the same heat as Barry, who should have been in Vegas early knowing the condititons.

Mancini- Like Vargas hung real tough in his two losses.. I think he peaked in his fight with Arguello..... Also hung tough with bramble(especially the 2nd time) but unllike ODLH,, Bramble was just very good not great.,... His best win was befoe his title shot over Jose L Ramirez,then a faded and smaller Chacon,Frias win was short and exciting,kod Former Champ Espana and won tough wiars with Deuk Koo Kim and ORlando ROmero.,..


Overall not a whole lot seperating, them.... But t think Vargas had the best overall skills and 2 big wins over near primeguys,as well as holding his own with 2 elites and atg of his day.... I think Hatton might have had the longest stay as champ and most defenses...Mayorga the most devastating in his short prime... Mcguigan about on par with Hatton.. The Mancini of the Arguello and Ramirez fights was probably at least as good as Hatton and Mcguigan.... Still good after but seemed to slip a notch after.

 

1. Mancini
2. Hatton
3. McGuigan
4. Vargas
5. Mayorga

 

of those guys I would rate Mancini the best, then McGuigan, than Hatton, Vargas and I am not sure why Mayorga is on that list. he is not close to great or those other fighters.

 

McGuigan
Mancini
Hatton
Vargas
Mayorga

 

Vargas
Hatton
McGuigan
Mancini
Mayorga

 

Well i think long layoffs and only fighting elite fighters .. has made people forget hwo dangerous he was... HE stacked the cards against him by fighting those guys and taking 2 year layoffs... In between.... Although i think Tito,Oscar and certain type elite fighters beat any version of Mauyorga.. .. He would have been capable of beating some other damn good fighters besides Forrest... He gave Mosley all he wanted, probaly winnable if HE STODD ACTIVE.. aLSO imo WOULD HAVE Kod Cotto.
I mean HTH in a fantasy matchup do you really think these guys would beat him easily? Mayorga would have a field day with alot of Come forward and busy sluggers.. .. Mayorga would have Hurt Hatton had they met at WW... OR most aggressive guys that dont have tough beards...

Cant see any ot those guys blowing out a Vernon Forrest type and reapeating the decsion in a rematch... PRime Vargas on his best nightand fighting smart liek he did pre Tito fight.(not dumb like after.),, the rest od those guys get knocked out or outboxed by a Vernon Forrest clone int their weight class.

 

Anarci, forrest arguably won against Mayorga the second time. It was close.

 

I thought Forrest won the second time. It wasn't as bad as the recent Paul Williams-Erislandy Lara decision, but it was the same type of thing.
Mayorga bull rushed forward landing next to nothing, while Forrest pot shotted and countered him while on his bicycle.

Mayorga got the decision base on aggression and punch output, but I don't think he landed enough to deserve the win.

As for the rankings: I'd go....
Mancini
Hatton
McGuin
Vargas
Mayorga

 

Tier 1: Mancini, McGuigan, Vargas

tier 2: Hatton, Mayorga


I think Mancini's effort against Arguello might be the best of the lot.

Then you've got McGuigan vs Pedroza/Laporte, Vargas vs Wright, Mancini vs JLR

then Hatton vs Tszyu , Mayorga vs Forrest 1, Vargas vs Quartey and others.


Hatton vs Lazcano, Collazo and Pac are among the worst of any performances by these guys, even allowing for Hatton's style and training habits bringing on a reasonably quick decline.

mayorga vs Spinks and Tito were bad too.A genuinely very good aggressive unorthodox puncher should have been able to back up and do real damage with rusty, past it stiff legged Tito.Probably too far past it after that to hold anything else against him too much.


McGuigan vs Cruz is bad too considering the hype and expecation around Barry at the time.Still it was a better quality fight than most of those and he does have the semi-legit excuses of being badly ****ed around by Eastwood at the time and the heat playing into the late collapse.

 

I think Barry needs a bit of slack cut too him here as his management team put Barry in 1st so as to give their sponsors premium exposure for the stay up for the fight audience. I'am sure i watced it live on ITV around midnight UK time, so long ago i could be wrong, but Barney Eastwood who was Barry's manager had got some Irish Bank as sponsors so Barry had too be the one up 1st of the triple hitter.

Back then in the 80's sponsorship was still in it's infancy here in the UK/Ireland & advertising was banned by the state owned BBC so any xtra sponsoship revenue was grabbed with all digits.

But to send a pale skinned european into the Vegas afternoon sun was absolutly insane & no amount of acclimatisation to desert conditions is going to make an ounce of difference in benefiting any athlete when sent into what can only be decribed as a French Foreign Legion punishment death march. It's an absolute miricle that he did'nt die in the ring fighting at that time of day.

I've been in a few deserts & the difference with Vegas is that you're in the High Seirra, you don't really sweat as it evaporates, a dry intense heat that seduces dangerously into thinking nothings really wrong with you not until yer equilibrium goes due to the de-hydration. Once the tempreture exceeds 40+ degrees you don't really feel anything until you seize up. Even Stevie Cruz said after the fight it was murder for him fighting in that ring with the heat & he lives in Texas. I even think that barry's corner were so il prepared that they even forgot to bring in any water. Cruz was a sub after all & who knows if they just thought it would be an easy nights work. But any pale skinned europeon boxer is putting his life at risk from heart failure IMO fighting in the/any desert sun.

I've been to Vegas enough times & to walk out of the casino's & the cooling mists at the doors to then be hit by what only can be described as an open pizza oven door on full blast as you leave the coolness of the hotel lobby & encounter the furness of the strip. I've always been of the mind you want 6 weeks in Vegas too properly acclimatise to local standards. But don't fight in the blazing afternoon desert sun. Great list though & it's Mancini for me, he was the pin up boy destined for super stardom until Bramble ambushed him.

 

Not many would blow out Forrest no, but still Mayorga lost to all the elite fighters otherwise. Hatton had no business fighting Mayorga. too small. I do not see Mayorga much on this list. Those guys he fought all were moving up in weight . He fought ok, but not elite level really. As for the other guys. I always respected Mancini and thought he could have had a better career than he had. Had he fought Pryor, he would have lost, but it would have been an almost better matchup and more exciting then fighting Bramble who switched from southpaw to orthodox for defensive purposes.
McGuigan had that bad fight with Stevie Cruz which was absolutely due to the heat completely, and he never recovered from the loss. You can almost say the heat of June 23, 1986 ended Barry's career.
Vargas was good, but not great.
And Ricky Hatton was absolutely 3rd to me. Again Hatton fights the wrong fighter which turns his whole career around. Ricky was not very versatile, but he was a top level guy. Many of these guys were cases of one bad fight affecting their whole career, yet they had the big potential. Except for Mayorga.

 

It was close but i didnt hear too many complaining about the decision.. I thought Mayorga edged it,, Forrest was more cautious than ever(understandably so) he gave some rounds away that he probably could have won.. I can see you not counting it if it was considered a robbery an controversil by most but that wasnt the case.. After scoring a 2 round Ko and Decision in the rematch,there should be no question as to who got the better of who in these 2 fights.

 

I'm surprised there was never any controversy regarding the Mayorga-Forrest rematch.It wasn't an outright robbery,but I couldn't give Mayorga anymore than five rounds.I thought Forrest settled down after a rough start and boxed well enough to earn a reasonably clear decision.


People just get caught up in Mayorga's showman tactics - it deludes them into thinking he's being more effective than what he actually is.That's why there's a considerable number of people who think he got robbed against Cory Spinks and that he was actually beating Shane Mosley.

 

The excuses you made for hatton,Mcguigan can easily be made for Vargas,Mayorga,.. Long lay 2 year lay offs in betweeen fighting elite level Competition, sounds like a more legit excuse than not being prepared to fight in the same Vegas heat as your underdog and substitute opponent, and Mayorga had also moved up from WW,, he didnt have no advantages ,Tito and ODLh were elite at JM too,...Loss to Cory Spinks could have gone his way,,, ,,,Cruz dont get enough credit for this fight, say this fight had been in an indoor arena or back east somewhere, I think Cruz would have still given Mcguigan all he wasnted,, Barry always had the benefits of fighting in his home country anyways,

A young Vargas with under 20 fights and takiing on an ATG in his prime,giving him all he could nandle,,THen being Kod by another elite in ODLh not to long after that , HE, Clearly sounds, like a much better excuse for losing your edge. than MCguigan losing his edger after one fight vs then gatekeeper/Prospect type ,,That was Mcguigans 1st loss,,Why the excuses for him but not these others,who after losing big fights still won their titles back,,, I do agree with you that Mancini would have been better if not for the brutal ko loss to arguello,,, Mancini- Pryor would have been much more exciting than Bramble.. But Pryor would ko him much faster and more brutal than Bramble did,,, Mancini would hang even or do well the first 2 rounds,,But Pryor would take over and brutally beat a game Boom boom after that Ko 4 or 5 Pryor,.,,, Mancinni was already a little war torn though,when bramble beat him He had a number of tough fights for being pretty younds and seemed to be less dominant and impressive,than he was before the tiltle and and rigth after first winning it,,,I think probably a few other contenders would have got him if Bramble hadntl,, Ramirez, would have beaten him in a rematch at that point in their career.Rosario kos him,Prime Camacho, Slick Crawley.. and a few other very good fghtes that were climbing up the ranks,..

You say Mayorga loss to all the elite fighters.. Do you think JM versions have of Mancini,Hatton do any better? Probably Mancinis best win was over then ranked contender Ramirez (but not peaked)... Dont count Chacon , he wasOldm shot,smaller and didnt train much....Beatin Prime Forrest twice is more impressive,,
THe only Reason i had hatton over Mayorga was caiuse he seemed to stick around a little longer at the top than the others:think

One of the main reasons Vargas didnt become great was cause he fougt 2 pRIME ATG guys early on,practically back to back... he didnt have the fortune of catching an old Pedroza or Old Tszyu...,,Also beating Winky,still very excellent Quarttey,,Surpasses any of the other guys 2 bigges wins.,..

If Vargas had Mcgugans timing when cominhg on to the scene.. He would have been unanamously been considered a great fighter,a nd wouldnt have to wait long to get in the HOF.