1969 Smokin Joe Frazier

Jim Jefferies is top 15, Rocky could be top 4, and I think Dempsey would beat Frazier. But it's like 55/45. Really close.

 

Top ten in terms of elite heavyweights with questionable punch resistance? I think he's a definate lock,mate.



As for those who beat him - I'd personally favour many,many,many - did I say many? - heavyweights to do so.

 

H2H only Foreman and Liston beat him with Louis having an outside shot! Super underrated H2H....In reality he smokes everybody else :yep !

 

Tough, relentless, great will to win. Frazier was a very good fighter in 69

 

[ame]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=stThK99b95Y[/ame]

 

Not sure why the 69 Frazier is being focused on, he improved further, the 1970-8 march 71 Frazier was even better.

 

Beast

I think he's a bit underrated. Not in H2H, but in record, achievements, and status. Olympic Gold Medal, won the FOTC against Ali, Ellis (2x), Quarry (2x), Bonavena (2x), Bugner, Chuvalo, Machen, Mathis. Two willful & brave outing losses to Ali, and getting bombed out by Foreman, the scariest HW since Liston, twice.

 

Yes, I think top five, and can agree with your assessment of who might beat him when in top form. I believe the Louis of the Godoy rematch would have also been very difficult for Marciano and Frazier to deal with. The Louis of Godoy II and Frazier of 1969 would have been hell for one another.

Typically, I have 1919 Dempsey, 1966-1967 Ali, and 1982 Holmes as my top three HWs, with Louis and Frazier occupying the next two slots. I can interchange Smoke and the Bomber at four and five depending on mood.

When I rate Louis at his best, I consider Max Baer and Godoy II, with Holmes, it's Shavers I and Cobb. For Frazier, I consider Ziggy, JQ I and Ellis I. (Having broken my ankle last June, I can understand how Smoke's own mobility was compromised when he broke his between Ellis I and Bob Foster, so I tend to be a little more reserved about FOTC Frazier, who was not put in a position of having to move laterally and apply the angles he did against Chuvalo, and later, Ron Stander, Foreman II and Cummings when he was faded, but with his ankle appearing fully recovered.)

Could 1969 Frazier have beaten 1973 Foreman? A first time match, even without the drain of the FOTC behind Joe would have been tough, but Smoke might have been able to weather the early storm like he did in Bonavena I. Even if not, he showed in his rematch with George that he might well have been able to elude Foreman long enough to drown the big guy in deep water in a return go. What Joe tried to do in Jamaica was a little surprising after his success side stepping and moving on Stander in his previous defense. If Frazier could get George in deep water, he'd have the late round power to hurt a fatigued Foreman and take him out.

 

H2H FOTC Frazier is no.1 for me

 

I think the guys who beat him would beat him again.

I'd take Ali if I was a betting man and he wasn't the huge favorite. Foreman beats Joe Frazier if he loses his left arm and right eye, it just doesn't matter.

I think Joe Louis would win in a firefight on the virtue of having more weapons.

I can't say I'd pick another over peaked Joe.

 

'69 Frazier was tremendous, but surely his absolute peak was '70-71, when he demolished Ellis and Foster and won the Fight of the Century.

If we're asking who all could or would beat him, I do think it must be admitted that Foreman would probably beat any version of Frazier, that some guys with similar attributes (say, Liston) would have the potential to stop him as well, and that some of the other great champions would at the least be capable of winning over him.

 

Not '67-'71 Frazier. That guy was a man on a mission and was not to be denied. Look at what Peak Frazier did to Chuvalo, Ellis, Bonavena(II), Quarry and Foster. Smokin' Joe would weather the early storm by Jack and , once he timed the right hand by the 3rd or 4th round, would begin clubbing him repeatedly with left hooks until he submitted. Joe held almost every single advantage over Dempsey... better corner, sharper puncher, better jab(yes, Peak Frazier had a good jab), better head movement, comparable chin and far better conditioning.

 

Doudenum, I've wondered about a younger Frazier, a bit different strategy, and a referee who took a dim view of pushing off. Would still favor George, but gotta give Joe a real chance.