The man that beat the great Ali in the FOTC weighed 205lbs

Don´t know about Povetkin but I before the Valuev fight they showed and talked about Chagaev´s training and he did a lof of cardio, heavy bag, sparring and not much weight training. Or that´s what I remember from it.

 

I can guarantee that he did not train anywhere near as much as a peak Joe Frazier. That is no criticism to Chagaev because Frazier was in his own class in that department. Chagaev's injuries have also often prevented him from training and I'm not too sure if he follows a strict diet, many Eastern European heavyweights do not (see Fedor Emelianenko for example).

 

Feel funny to disagree. But a couple of observations:

1. It's hard to say if Wlad has improved when dealing with agression. There's probably reason to belive he has, but that's not that important here anyway since Ali wouldn't press him like that or hammer him on the inside etc. Wlad's "hugging and leaning" would definitely be very effective as it is in this case.

2. Ali dealt quite easily with long, good jabs (Liston's and Terrell's for example), but height advantage also plays a role here as well as Wlad's superior ability to control range. This is perhaps his best asset and something he's really, really good at. To come inside that jab and the deadly right behind it is hard enough if you plan to stay on the inside once you get in, but for an in-and-out boxer it becames that much harder. I just don't see him do it against Wlad often enough, not without getting punished.

3. As for opposition, that goes two ways. Ali of course didn't meet anyone with the combination of size, speed, skill, power and stamina of Wlad anymore than Wlad has met anyone close to Ali. I probably rate Haye higher than most here, though, just think he was on a mission impossible (or at least mission highly, highly improbable).

 

Well, it wasn´t my point that he trained as much as Frazier. Don´t know about Chagaev specifically but German based hws and hws with a German trainer, like Chagaev, have to follow a strict diet. German promoters, or more their trainers, are obsessed with scientific preperation. Hell, they let their fighters run with some machine that measures how much oxygen they inhale and exhale to learn how they can improve their breathing

My point is that some people never will have a six-pack or will be well defined if they don´t train specifically for it. It´s just their bodytype.

 

Yeah, Ali probably would go along with the hug´n´lean but on the other hand Ali did fight inside in Frazier III and as intelligent of a fighter as he is, he may realize he would have to do so here too.

Wlad´s giving up quite a bit of his advantage with his broad stance - visible against Haye, at times their heads seems to be at the same height - and him leaning forward when he really jabs and isn´t pawing with his jab. Ali would use that to his advantage and he easily would slip the pawing jab of Wlad. And I always hear about Wlad´s deadly right hand, yet, he is so reluctant of throwing it. Even against someone as Haye, who couldn´t really land on him. Ali would land much more than Haye and counter that right hand thus making Wlad even more reluctant throwing it.
Wlad´s good at dictating range but if there is someone better at hw it´s Ali. His footspeed and footwork is far above Wlad´s. Look how he nullified Terrell´s jab with his footwork and thus not only took it away for much of the fight but also gave Terrel angles he had trouble with. Wlad never experienced that in his career. You think he can deal with that?

True. Ali never faced someone like Wlad. But he faced harder punchers - Foreman - faster fighters - Patterson - more skilled fighters - Patterson, Moore - fighters with more stamina - Frazier, anyway I think Wlad still has stamina problems but his new style and low punch output and better pacing is letting him get away with it. Everything Wlad brings to the table Ali already experienced and dealt with. Wlad never faced someone as fast, as skilled, as determined, someone with so much will and strength of mind, someone as intelligent and adaptable. Ali has too many dimensions for Wlad IMO. And is especially mentally Wlad´s superior. That´s the clincher for me. In the end.

 

That would be something. He'd have to show some body work in this case, though. It's also very hard to work indside on guys who are not only taller, but also bigger and stronger in general. "Hug and lean" goes a long way if you're the bigger stronger guy and utilizes it well, as he himself showed on many an occassion.

Wlad has a very good jab when he commits to it, but even pawing is very effective when you have that reach advantage and the right behind. In fact, from my own experience I know that pawing can be more effective since you don't really have anything you can slip inside. That's much easier to against a regular jab. Wlad is intelligent in that he doesn't give dynamic fighters a clear lead to slip.

And he didn't land that right very much against Haye (was it two ro three times all in all?), but it was a very effective deterrant. It just messes up yopur rhytm badly to know that once you're past the jab you still have the right to worry about. And that right hand you should worry about.

Ali is definitely more proven against a great variety of opposition and has without a doubt shown the stronger mentality. But that was also true against guys who beat him (especially Norton). I just think this would be the case here as well, but I'd love to be wrong.

 

I mentioned the similarities between Haye's and Ali's dimensions before when people were referring to Haye as a good little man.

In my opinion people were reading too much into the size of Haye vs Wlad. The sizes of the fighters were not to big issue, the styles were and their size can tie into that. Haye as a counter puncher was not going to beat Wlad, before the fight many gave him a chance if he applied pressure.
Joe Frazier would not have beat Ali that night as a counter puncher, lucky for him he was not a counter puncher, he was a come forward , pressure bringing , swarming machine who managed to bring too much for Ali to deal with.

 

All true. Would be quite fascinating. But honestly I don´t think that would be the decider here. Neither of them would really look to score on the inside, the fight will be fought at long and midrange. Wlad´s hug´n´lean won´t tire out Ali - he´s in too good shape and I think the clinches would be broken too quickly once the ref realizes there isn´t much going on.

Against an opponent that tall Ali would use some bodypunches I think. Can´t prove it though but he can use his normal punches without the need to lean down like against the opponents of his time.

True but on Wlad´s part, it´s very slow and lazy thus making it easy to slip. He often gives up his reach advantage when pawing too, only moving his hand half the way and moving closer, inside the reach of his opponent, see again the Haye fight.

True but those fighters don´t give him angles. They all rush in head first, in straight lines. Somebody should tell him that this isn´t fencing and they are allowed to move to the sides too. Ali would for sure.

All true, but what his opponents don´t realise is that it´s just a threat. Nothing more. Yes, it is there but he isn´t throwing it when on defence. It´s an offensive weapon only. Tell me, when did you see Wlad countering some with the right the last time? When did you see Wlad punching someone with his right once he slipped the jab? He doesn´t. He get´s frightened and tense, leans back, makes a few steps back and/or tries to hig you. But he is not throwing his right. As intelligent and adaptable as Ali is, he will realize and use that.

Norton was the Nadal to Ali´s Federer. His stylistic foil. Wlad isn´t - even so he is better than Norton IMO.

 

Haye is a perfect example of the pumped up fighters of the past few generations ... Ali was 6'3" as is Haye .. however look at Ali's legs. They are huge compared to Haye ... Foreman's as well ... Ali and Foreman looked the way they looked without touching a weight .. in addition, each was exceptionally strong ... Haye was all pumped up , skinny legs and no strength as proven by flopping time and again on the floor v.s. Klitschko ..

 

Haye's big enough.
He just doesn't have a true heavyweight heart, he fights too much like he's the smaller man.

 

Very good assessment,Unforgiven. A mental,rather than a physical,thing.

 

Good points,Bokaj. I think Ali's phenomenal speed and smarts would enable him to make inroads that Haye could n't though.

 

Yeah, there wouldn't be much clinching or inside work. At least not to Ali's advantage. This would perhaps be the only opponent he wouldn't lean on. But he did show in Manilla that he could adapt to not being allowed (or, as in this case, being able) to clinch.

Ali was very adept with the jab to the body against tall opponents. Haye tried that one as well, but Ali should have a bit more success I think.

I think he kept the range and reach extremely well against Haye. Haye had of course no problems avoiding that pawing jab, but it's very hard to slip inside since it isn't committed to.

Ali would of course test him here more than anyone ever has. But I think Wlad resets himself very well. He also reads the opponent very well. His style is very one-dimensional, but there are subtleties to it.

You got a point there. He's just so good at taking those measured steps back and then reseting. He certainly didn't look frightened or tense against Haye or any other time I've seen him lately. I was impressed by how composed he looked, even when Haye managed to tag him. He just grabbed Haye until his head cleared.

What he does is simplistic and unworthy of a great champ in principle, but he just does it so well. I'll rather watch McCallum-Watson another 20 times before I watch a single round of Wlad-Haye again, but I have to bow down to Wlad's effectiveness.

That's the thing, I think Wlad is stylistically very difficult for Ali. Much more than he is Tyson, for example.

 

I really hope he would. I just can't see it at this moment in time.

Hopefully, someone will come along and prove how utterly and pathetically wrong I am.

 

Never mind. As you said,Ali achieved enough in actuality. :good