The man that beat the great Ali in the FOTC weighed 205lbs

:thumbsup

I thnk a bit is an understatement. Ali is just soo much better than Haye. But, yeah. :thumbsup

See, if even Haye had no problems avoiding the pawing jab, Ali should be able to slip it, throw a 1-2 and more out again.

Of course he reads his opponents very well. All of his opponents were as one-dimensional as him. None of him was creative, none of them tried something out of the norm, none of them adapted. They all went in with a gameplan and when it failed they took a beating without trying to change anything.
You think Ali would do the same? I don´t.
But yeah, Wlad´s style works well for him. His opponents lack of abilities - adaption, slipping the jap, applying pressure - and stylistic disadvantages have as much to do with that as Wlad beeing good at it IMO.

Because his opponents let him do that. Watch the Haye fight, he has Wlad backing up, off-balance and what is he doing? Resetting himself, waiting for Wlad to get at range again and continue what he is good at. He didn´t exploit Wlad´s weakness, he just ignored it. Probably because he was afraid of the right, Ali would take the risk, I´m sure of that.
I thought he looked tense and uneasy for most of the fight. More than in his recent fights. :think

Sure. That´s why I rank him so high. Probably higher than you.

You´ve a point here. Wlad´s a stylistic foil for boxers. Ali is a boxer. But he isn´t your usual boxer who relies on skill and technique. Ali´s biggest strength isn´t even his speed or chin. His biggest strengths is his mentallity and his uber-human will and absolute determination. I don´t think any hw - well, perhaps Jack Johnson, Frazier at the FotC and Louis at the Schmeling rematch - matches him there. And when you look at Wlad, he is nearly the complete opposite.
I think Ali beats him mentally which will make him tense up which will tire him out which will lead to a stoppage defeat - of course there are other factors, like Ali making him work more, run around in the ring more and so on.

Bottomline, Ali will exploit his mentallity and still existing stamina issues to win IMO.

I already did. :bart

 

Damn hard to slip and counter a punch that the other guy doesn't commit to, at least if he's that much bigger. If any HW could do what your proposing against that size advantage, it would be Ali. But even for him it would be hard to do consistently I think.

That's the age old problem concerning any dominant fighter: Is their opposition really bad or are they just so good that they make opponents look bad? The answer is usually an emphatic "yes" to the former when they are still active, turning into an ever stronger "yes" to the latter after they have retired.

But as the free thinker I am, I'm leaning towards "yes" on the former already concerning Wlad.

My bet would be that Ali lacks the agression and power to make Wlad shrink back and eventually gas. Ali would be giving it a better go than Haye, though, in all probability.

Ps. I of course take objection to Ali "not relying on skill and technique".:smoke

 

Nope, it´s not and it´s not what I´m saying. It´s both. Wlad is that good and his opponents - due to various reasons - are that bad. This era isn´t worse than the 80s, late 50s/early 60s or 20s. But it´s still a bad one. Wlad´s a very, very good fighter and thus he dominates it.

I don´t think Ali lacks the aggression, he can be aggressive - again watch the Terrell or Williams fights - but yeah, his power isn´t that impressive. I just think he doesn´t need it. It wouldn´t be the power that would make Wlad shrink but facing a man who can hit him more often than he is used to, and one he can´t hit as often as he is used to, one who make him work harder than he is used to, like every minute of every round instead of one minute per round.

I didn´t say that. You know what I mean.

 

I agree Ali did and would have trouble with the smaller fighters like Cooper, Jones and Frazier and always felt Louis and Marciano and Dempsey would be strong candidates to beat him Louis and Marciano have proven 15rd. stamina and so did Ali....Dempsey did but a lot of his fights were 10 rounders so not much to go on.

I do however barring cuts see the the fundamentally sound and tight defensive minded Klitschko being a hard obstacle for Ali to overcome....Ali's strengths were adapting and inner belief were strong but Vlad has shown a great improvement. I still think Lewis may have had the right style and early offense to beat Vlad but Vlad also has some strengths to rattle Lewis but I like Vlad style in a fight against Ali and see it as a well matched battle.

 

He's 6"3 you ****ing weirdo.

 

Ali would take away Wladimir Kiltshcko's Jab, with his own jab.

David Haye has a immense jab, and there was a point in his fight with Wladimir where he was nailing him with it. And growing in confidants, then suddenly the round ended and he reverted back and neglected his Jab.

 

Barring Tyson, and maybe Lewis, Ali and Holmes probably present two of the worst match-ups for Klitschko. Speed and footwork would keep Wladimir from mounting a significant, lasting impression offensively. He would constantly have to reset, lacking the overall fluidity of a Tyson or Frazier in attack.

Both Ali and Holmes slipped straight punches rather well. I think Ali, specifically, would exploit Klitschko's slow, pawing jab and any right that might follow more often than not- not that I see Klitschko eager to throw many rights against the kind of movement Ali brings in there. Everytime he jabs, he would have to take a step closer in Ali's direction to keep up; I don't think he can do that in one motion. Hence, a 'reset'. Rinse and repeat.

I just can't imagine Wlad getting a look in in this fight.

 

hey, nipple brain, check out those thick soles on his boots!

 

Talking of smaller heavies. I really think the likes of Frazier, Quarry, Holyfield, Tyson and Patterson, throw Ali in as well would all make Haye look worse than Wlad did.

 

Haye showed power and speed in fights with Valuev and power and talent with Ruiz, the guy still did what no one else could do against them....Haye was dominated vs Vlad but Vlad never took him lightly....It was a competitively alive domination...a chess match that Vlad controlled....but Haye was still a better fighter than many of Ali or Holmes competition or defenses in fact I think Haye would be more of a danger all of Holmes opponents other than Cooney and Weaver but Haye has more speed than the 2 ...Haye certainly more of a danger than Snipes with speed and power

 

Ali wasn't constantly agressive until he had his man in big trouble. Otherwise he picked his spots and certainly wasn't the kind to take a punch to land one of his own.

But, yes, a prime Ali would constantly be probing for angles and openings, that much is true. But Wlad is very good at not presenting them. He would have to be constantly alert, though.

 

I have very little doubt that Haye would stop Quarry. Frazier, Holy and Tyson are completely different ball games, though. Even Patterson could put things on their head with one good hook or combination. He'd probably prove too small in the end, though.

 

haye didn't really test klitchko did he? where was getting inside that jab and throwing a bunch/combo of punches together. No he was being one dimentional - something ali definitely wasn't - ali would get inside and throw 5 punches not just looking to land one big right punch.

 

I respect your opinion and your respect for Haye and I'm not one for knocking fighters but I still see Haye as a bit of a novice. That's the state of the game today that I'm calling the former heavyweight champ green but he just hasn't proved himself to me. He hasn't fought any live contenders, they've done a great job managing him but he hasn't learnt his trade for me. Like Groove just said, he's one dimensional. He hasn't experienced different styles of fighters in testing fights. I think Quarry would drag him into places he wouldn't be comfortable. Jerry was only stopped by the best and beat some real top punchers who were bigger men than himself and better than anyone Haye has beaten. I think Hayes best win was probably against Mormeck down at cruiserweight.
Don't forget if it wasn't for old these straps available Haye would never be heavyweight champion of the world.

 

Jerry would be a crusier today, as would Patterson. Haye is at least more proven there.

And it's not that I have a huge amount of respect for Haye, it's just that I don't rate Quarry terribly high.