It doesn't state that the fighters he's better than are neccessarily all based this side does it? This side of the Atlantic I took to mean fighters from this side, because then I'd have brought up the likes of Luis Garcia in that scenario. :blood He's 5''10, Lomax aside, he's been taller and longer than all his adversaries thus far(to my knowledge), so I'm not entirely sure what you're basing that comment on. That's why I said it, if he was at a height disadvantage for the vast majority of his fights then I wouldn't complain about him being in range because it would be neccessary for him to be within his opponent's reach. But he isn't smaller, and thus, the fact he's consistently withing range isn't exactly a plus point, irrespective of whether he's good at avoiding one or two shots, he's vulnerable to the third, the fourth and so on. In that respect he reminds me a bit of Anselmo Moreno(and not in any other respect), he can avoid the first one or two, but he doesn't get out, thus he's susceptable to being caught by someone who will actually put a volume of blows together.
Personally, I feel Good footwork, ring generalship, is the most effective form of defense, its the best way not to get hit, but its also difficult to sustain, which is why its important to have other aspects of defense down, like being able to be defensive in the pocket without getting nailed, whilst landing your own counters, problem is, using your legs is an easier skill to master than fighting in the pocket and not getting nailed, but if you have both aspects down, you dont have to regiment yourself to one specific thing, which is probably why Floyd is so good defensively. Floyd's legs are his greatest asset defensively imo, but he can also hold his feet, give you a stationary target, make you miss, and still make you pay, that's what defense is about imo, its incooperating all aspect of defense, like glove defense, being able block & parry, using your upperbodymovement, using your footwork, countering when you make someone miss to let them know there is a price to pay for letting your hands go. That's my two sense anyway, although to be honest, I dont know what the debate was about
The statement was pretty simple mate. He said most natural talent this side of the atlantic. He didn't say best person of European heritage. That means one thing, they're on this side of the atlantic. You can't be on this side of the Atlantic if you're based in North America regardless of whether you're Romanian, Ukranian or Martian. I don't really know how to expand on this much further so we may as well leave that one there I suppose I was thinking more in terms of Gavin as he develops, I don't think he's especially big at welter in particular. Not at the level he's supposed to be heading for anyway. Regardless it doesn't matter to me because my philosophy isn't just about dominating range if you're taller and longer. I don't see it as any disadvantage if you stand in range and are able to slip and slide and take advantage of your opponents lack of skill relative to you. There are two sides to this coin, you may be open to the third and fourth, but to throw the third and fourth they may well have missed the first and second providing good counterpunching opportunities. Gavin's philosophy is pretty simple at the moment: I'm better and more skilled than you and I'm going to position myself where I can best take advantage of it. Especially at domestic level. There is really no point whatsoever dominating range against these fighters and boring people. Thats nothing but carrying them really. Gavin's doing it in the most efficient way possible at the moment, possibly his last peformance aside which was poor for him. Infact I'd argue he did too much posturing at arms length in that fight and not enough in close.
Except Khan hasn't got good feet though, he has fast feet. He hasn't got the kind of rhytym N'Jikam has while on the move, he moves for the sake of it, he never looks as though he knows what he should actually be doing while circling around. Hassan doesn't circle into punches to the extent Khan does, nor does he trap himself on the ropes as much as Khan does. What I will admit though is that when Hassan circles, he consistently circles too wide, and that's what wears you down, not the fact that you're constantly moving, it's how you're moving.
What your saying, in theory, is right, I mean the bigger you are, it stands to reason your presenting a bigger target area, which is why fighters try to minimize their target area by standing side on, or widening their stance to fight small, to make the guy punch down etc, that said, I dont know if its exclusively impossible for a taller man to fight that way, provided they know what they're doing. Hopkins is not exactly small, and James Toney was 5 10, then again, I take the point, Gavin is not Toney, Hopkins, and P4P, fighting at 160/168 like Toney was, your gonna come across guys who are bigger than you, than what you would if your fighting at a lower weight like Gavin and presenting a 5 10 frame, I also take the point taller fighters like Bowe, Paul Williams, got hammered due to presenting too much target area, then again, they were more deliberate fighters, I dunno man, its a tough one, I can see what you are saying though.
Hassan has an excess of movement full stop if you ask me. Yes, he moves too far away. There are all manner of silly unnecessary movements also. He strikes me as a guy fighting a lot on nervous energy. He burns too much up of it up and leaves himself exposed late in the fight. A bang average Armenian prior to the last one he fought stunned him in part due to this and neglect of defence. I don't see that much difference between him and Khan except for the fact if you put NDNJ in with somebody of the style/quality of Marcos Maidana I'm fairly convinced he'd be knocked clean out.
Id agree with this point, Khan is the kind of fighter who lands flurries and then darts away before repeating the process again, hes never close enough to utilize good footwork. In reality good footwork can be used just as well in close, escaping your opponents punches just at the right time, which opens them up for countering. You never see Pacquiao, great footwork that he has getting on his bike the way Khan does.
Yeah, you adapt accordingly to how much confidence you have that you can manipulate the opponent based on his style, skill. Against a better fighter, Gavin probably wont try to get that close, as he will feel! that its not the right thing to do. In the past, I have sparred with people who you feel confident in getting closer to, but I've also sparred people where by you feel more apprehension getting closer to them, so you adapt.
I'm not a major fan of the old using your legs routine. I'm more of the school of thinking - quick but precise footwork. Smaller movements. Just enough, enough so that you're not giving up counter opportunities. But good enough so you can control range if its that type of gameplan. You never saw Mike McCallum backing off to the other side of the ring just to regain defensive composure. You're sacrificing so much offensively. Likewise you rarely actually see Mayweather do that, he's never as far away as Khan and NDNJ get at times. Thats the ideal textbook way of fighting. Using your legs to me as Method 1 and the only method is just a last resort and highly exploitable. I mean its better than standing there and getting hit, but exploitable. You need a bit of everything in your cake mix to call yourself a good defensive fighter.
Nor did he say best that's based in Europe. I hardly think he meant it as most naturally gifted currently standing in Europe. Surely you can see how it can be interpreted both ways? I'm not sure why you seem to think I can't fathom the point you're making, I'm merely stating that it wasn't very precise was it? If he asked who the best player the other side of the Atlantic is you wouldn't say that Messi couldn't count because he's based in Barcalona would you(ignoring the fact that the Copa is on)? Footwork/ring generalship are extremely important aspects of defense, and Gavin lacks them. The same way N'Jikam/Syllakh lacks defensive positives in terms of slipping shots. They're all flawed defensively in some respect, whether you have a preference for certain aspects of their defensive capabilities or not. If Gavin's is able to avoid the first 1/2 shots, all well and good, but who's to say he currently possesses the footwork necessary to enable himself to be in position to fire off a counter? Footwork is imperative for positioning too, and positioning is imperative for successful counter punching. He looks great now because his opponent's lack any kind of offensive prowess to take advantage of such flaws, hence he's able to dominate and always look comfortable defensively. I doubt we'll see the same dominance when he's faced with someone who can put a very good combination together.
I can, kind of. Yet it still says, this side of the atlantic. Either way, the semantics are getting a touch boring. It doesn't really matter, I think Gavin's up there for talent. I'm not even arsed if he's considered number one or not and its not my firm opinion that he is, I think if its based on fighters located within Europe it wasn't that controversial a shout. The thing is, you're talking about what his opponents can't do now but you have to be able to recognize there is literally no point in fighting the way you want him to against these opponents. The opponent issue - It's very much a double edged sword. What you're asking him to do is not the most efficient way to deal with lower level opposition, nor is it one the fans are going to thank him for. Nobody wants to see Gavin stood at range slapping his opponent about, dancing backwards and maintaing distance, slapping him about again. They want to see him get in there and finish these puddings off. The most efficient way to do that is to stand with them, expose their lack of skill, hunt the body. And ultimately, he still achieves it without getting hit. It's inevitably going to be the quickest way and the most marketable way. By no means does this mean he's incapable of doing something different. You're reading between the lines a little too early there if you ask me, its not like he hasn't got the talent to think about the sport in a different way. He ain't the next John Murray!
Using tight little turns can leave you too close at times though imo. I always felt that was one of Malignaggi's problems. McCallum did used get him more than we would like to imagine imo. Like Whitaker, whilst they were still both excellent defensively, they did get hit more than say what a Mayweather does, although I take the point, they fought better fighters, but I also think, Mayweather was more disciplined, and mixed his defense up more by using his legs to offset opponents, well, its not that he was more disciplined, he's more cautious, either way, he keeps himself out of arms way a lot more by not being a closer. I guess you are sacrificing something offensively, but I guess the argument to that, would be, your also resetting the opponent at times. Mayweather essentially beat Castillo and Corrales by using his legs.
Nor would I want to make it seem as though I'm insiuating that that is the way he should fight. It is, however, the way in which he appears to want to fight, which is why I do have slight criticisms of him. I mean, he wants to make you miss, make you pay. That's not always going to work though when you're constantly planted stationary in front of your opponent, if you know what I mean? He wants to maneuver his way away from his opponent's shots/slip them, it's hard to do that, particularly when the guy let's off 4/5 shots high and low, when you're standing in front of the guy, with little movement. For the way he wants to fight, in my opinion, he's lacking the necessary footwork to fully utilise it.