Best losing effort: Duran-Hagler or Whitaker-DLH?

Not really. He was a naturally stronger man and a much harder hitter, so that obviously made a difference against bigger men, but those just happened to be advantages Duran had as a fighter. They were pretty much the exact same size, and I don't believe the move up to 154 hindered Whitaker any more than it did Duran. They both looked noticeably slower and all around less impressive at the weight.

I'd also say Duran was further removed from his prime.

 

honestly I don't think so. Whitaker like Leonard and other quick fighters relied more on that speed and sharpness to win fights, once they got a little older they lost the speed and became less effective. Duran had so much experience and I think held the weight better than people think (he sometimes weighed over 200 pounds between fights in the mid to late 1980s) that moving up and getting older did not hurt him as much if he had the right style in front of him like Barkley.

 

I don't see how anyone could have whitaker winning that fight. He lost pretty clearly every time I've scored it. He made the fight shitty and ugly but he definitely didn't do enough to win it.

 

I disagree, Leonard wouldn't have stopped Duran, at least not that night. Physical activity where you push yourself is hard, being undermined,while your pushing yourself hard is soul destroying especially in boxing. Leonard humiliated Duran, Duran got sick of it, was demoralised, couldn't do anything to impose himself because he'd been neutralised and didn't think Leonard was fighting the good fight. That's why he quit

 

Whitaker - Tito was different. He was hurt pretty bad and trying to survive. Against DLH, he was in the fight during every second, and more than competitive (although I had him losing).

Better effort than Duran vs Hagler, too.

 

Not only was Duran ripped at WW, I think he was a big WW as in he'd gain water back to make himself a solid 152-155 in the ring as many WWs do. That weight really suited him. The weight he gained after WW would have been part fat but part muscle too.
It's like James Toney at HW, he has got fat but he has certainly gained some muscle too. Actually I think Toney and Duran have similarities in many ways, both in terms of binge eating, relying on skill instead of conditioning, their rights hands, their defensive skills, their shoulder roll/shot slipping, countering and macho attitudes

Look at Duran against Hagler - this isn't an out of shape fighter by any means, a little soft but not worse than many fighters

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Now I'm not disputing Duran has size disavantages against Hagler, I just think they're overstated by calling him a natural LW, he weighed in as a MW and was solid but undersized at the weight. An excellent performance by both men

I made an analysis of this thread early SH and concluded - it's apples and oranges. They are so different in what both men achieved

 

I thought SRL boxed superbly and actually dominated the early scoring where Duran was never ahead nor threatening to be. Leonard went in, played to his own strengths and fared well. Duran by contract had to abandon his great infighting and fight a more cautious almost survival based (for periods) style. Leonard when cautious was still piling points.

I also believe Hagler let Duran perform FAR better than he should have been allowed. In a rematch vs the same version i believe Hagler would have near killed him. Hagler's woeful early tactics helped SRL accumulate somewhat, but he laid off Duran terribly.

Carlos Monzon said Hagler fought Duran wrong and when you fought the little guys moving up you had to pressure them and exert your size right from the outset. Monzon was a man that always had it worked out where as Marvin in these two challenges come up quite shorthanded strategically even if he did beat Roberto handily in the end.

No doubt Duran fought a great fight for someone extremely outgunned in size and weaponry. Again, Hagler also aided this. Duran did what he could.

I'm hearin' ya mate. Duran went in undergunned against one of the dominant champs at the top of his game.

Seriously, you put the best of Duran in P4P vs Hagler and Roberto would kick his arse. He was much smarter and would represent 5 times the offensive threat to Marvin. He'd be able to war inside and more than hold his own outside. He pretty much neutralised Hagler's jab with his guile and abilities. He said Hagler's right hand was his danger hand and that his left had nothing at all power wise.

 

Sure -why Duran quit is clear, but I think that there was a shadow in it. Duran's reflexes weren't there, the fire wasn't there. His body looked like a deflated balloon. He wasn't in the condition he should have been, and he was looking at another 7 rounds with either not enough gas, or if you believe Randy Gordon like Pachilles does, he had too much gas.

Leonard was a formidable puncher and Duran knew it. I'm not convinced that he would have quit had he been confident he'd finish the fight and lose on points. I think that his humiliation was compounded by the spectre of a stoppage later on... just a theory.

 

I went with Hagler... He was the bigger more dangerous fighter and most thought he was gonna destroy the aging and much smaller Duran.

As for ODLH-Whittaker it was pretty evenly matched..and despite becoming the naturally bigger man, he was the one moving up iin this fight... ODLH stopped brielfly at JW then immediately took this fight, While Whittaker had been at WW already for years.


I thought they were equally close... Both losing equally close but convincing decision... Whittaker might have had more highlight reels while making Oscar look foolish and countering,but score the fight how its suppose to and Oscar clearly won more rounds.. Had Hagler- Duran razor close after 12, Hagler sweeped it at the end to pull it out.

IMO both Duran and Whittaker lost by 3 or 4 pts.

 

Whitaker was an elite fighter in my opinion too, with elite-level accomplishments.

Duran's being in excellent fighting shape for a handful of middleweight bouts, doesn't dispute what I believe is the fact that the man is a natural lightweight. Had he the discipline of say, a Hopkins, he could have stayed at 135 indefinitely. That was the division that he physically belonged in.

Men who are 5'7 with a 67 inch reach advantage who fight spectacularly at 135 until they are 26/27 years old are Lightweights. Duran's beating Leonard and going the distance with Hagler are special for that reason particularly. To argue that the man was really a welterweight who then became a middleweight is diminishing not only the accomplishments of Duran and many others in history, but the truth.

I think I remember you saying that you boxed. Say you're a 5/10 MW at 25/26, and then go on an eating and weight-lifting program at 27 to fight LHWs for more money and glory. You'd notice the difference in there against bigger men. And they would go in knowing that you are really a MW who is doing the opposite of what most fighters do in training -that is, "indulging" instead of "denying"- to fight bigger men. You'd be at a disadvantage in terms of physicality right out of the gate. I'm a damn natural MW but right now I weigh about 190. The thought of even sparring wtih Cruisers makes me want to go on a crash diet to get rid of the junk.

Look at Hagler in the photo (which is a great one by the by). He was a small middleweight and yet he is still dramatically bigger and longer and stronger than even a ripped and ready Duran. I think it was Putnam that called Hagler the "Toy Bull." Duran fought a magnificent strategic fight because he was totally physically outgunned! Take a look at their tale of the tape.

 

Good argument, even if I do see it differently.

You may well be right, but there is another argument that you've heard me say before, that rescues Hagler's strategy a bit. Remember, Hagler did win... however his eye blew up just like Moore's did because of Duran's sneaky right.

Had Hagler engaged him early like you and many think he should have, Duran would've popped it and you could see him aiming for that eye like a dude playing darts at a pub. Duran was also expecting more aggression from Hagler and I'd argue that he was absolutely prepared to deal with it (strategically though not in terms of conditioning because of that Hagler 'heaviness' though he expected that he would be able to handle it). Duran was planning to land and pivot. He was going to throw hard combinations to meet Hagler's agression and then step over. And if Hagler swelled up around that eye earlier, well, Duran ain't gonna be a Christian in there and a one-eyed Hagler ain't never beating that Duran.

Now, to take this further... I think that explains a bit of why there were such lulls, why it seemed that Duran was standing off so much --he was waiting.

Did Hagler aid Duran's performance because he was in awe or was he and the Petronelli's thinking about Pipino Cuevas and especially Davey Moore? Was it awe or (an ultimately successful) strategy...?

Normally, you and Monzon's critique would be on the money -and you may be here as well. I'm just not so sure. Duran was Duran on that night, the fight was 15 rounds, and Duran was still considered iron-jawed and offensively able to swell up eyes and hurt big guys.

 

Yes,but it wasn't to be Duran's last fight where he "lost" in which he out-performed a rival against a common opponent.One couldn't possibly forget that marvelous effort that he put in against William Joppy; Trinidad's performance paled in comparison when you really analyze their respective performances against Joppy.