Ali's wins over Liston: Does he deserve credit for them?

I give him credit for the first, though I think Sonny underestimated him. I can't buy the second fight at all, I'm afraid. Personally I don't think Ali in his heart believes he deserves credit for it...he never bragged about that victory, 'cause he knew it was fake. Do you really believe that Muhammad Ali, in knocking out the most feared heavyweight in history up to that point, with one punch in one round, wouldn't be bragging about it constantly? He always bragged about Foreman and Frazier, and sometimes the Miami Liston, but I never heard anything about Lewiston Liston, except his very brief bull**** about "the anchor punch". Why scream at your opponent to get up if you just landed a haymaker...Ali knew it was a love tap and a dive.

 

I also don't give Tyson credit for his won over Holmes. Why? Because Larry got his arm stuck in the ropes. If that didn't happen, Larry surely would've out-boxed Tyson to a decision. The fight clearly ended prematurely. Quite possible a Don King fix for more money for Larry. If there was one thing Larry loved more than his pride, it was money!

 

This is why they make ignore lists for forums, and he is on mine.

 

Nice joke Pete. Maybe King applied adhesive to the ropes, to trap Old Larry like a helpless fly on a spider's web. Anything is possible in the supremely corrupt world of scumbag-extraordinaire Don King! In reality, it might've been a premature stoppage if halted after the first knockdown, or the glanching second knockdown, but Holmes was out like a light from the third nuke which floored him. :dead

 

Holmes actually stated that if his hand didn't get stuck between the ropes, he would've knocked Mikey out with the right uppercut. :yep

 

:rofl:roflatsch


Larry was always one for being modest. :yep

 

King knew he had to protect his fighter. Larry was going to the first "real good" HW Tyson had faced. King knew Tyson, like Jordan, was just a media money creation that needed to be protected.

I know. Nobody is capable of making up such a funny excuse. No one noticed a damn thing about the ropes until Larry came out with one of his great post-fight sore loser excuses. He still to this day shits on Tyson and makes up everyone reason for why he lost. If it wasn't for those damn ropes.

He's pretty proud of correctly predicting the "Tyson will end up in prison" stuff.

 

Being the first fighter to beat the 'invincible' Sonny Liston since Marty Marshall ten years previously ? And the Marshall victory coming when Sonny was still a novice ? I'd say that Ali DEFINITELY deserves credit.

 

No Liston was washed up and Listons best wins came over a 180 pound Patterson and a highly overrated Cleveland Williams

 

What gets me about that is that Holmes quite rightly criticised Muhammad Ali as being foolish,when Ali came back to fight him. So what does Holmes do ? Commits an equally stupid deed by coming back to face Tyson. As you infer,money was Holmes' god.

 

Liston also beat Folley, Machen & Valdez.

 

The first one, absolutely. Ali outskilled him and put on a clinic for basically every round except when he was blinded. If one doesn't gie credit for that, then why not refuse to give credit for any victory that you either don't like or feel wasn't complete enough?

Hey, I like Arturo Gatti a lot more than Angel Manfreddy, and since it was the ringside doctor who urged the ref to stop the fight, does Manfreddy really deserve any credit for it?

So every Mike Tyson victory that came in 7 rounds or less doesn't count?

I'm trying to look for logical consistency and some kind of rhyme or reason here...

 

unranked, faded valdes was actualy beaten up by a young alonzo johnson in his last bout before fighting Liston and a fight but one before was up and down like a yoyo before geting KO'd by 19-3-2 charlie powel who I think was really a football player in the NFL that took up boxing to become a journeyman.


Its still a good win for liston but valdes was prety much on the skids then.


valdes record at that time was not that of a contender on the way up. machen had already ended his chances as a top fighter knocking him out 3 years earlier, at the time liston fought valdes hed lost 8 times since hed been marcianos #1 contender way back when.

listons best wins were foley and harris. Both were rated and had not been beaten so easily until then.

 

Ali deserves more credit than liston did beating patterson. At least liston tried to win the first Ali fight! patterson never got going against liston, he was target practice. Floyd showed zero against liston both times.

 

yes of course he does.

remember who dismissive people were of the lip? even in the rematch?

i weren't alive back then, but i've read enough reports and seen enough documentaries for it to be clear that lioston was seen to be the next joe louis and possibly the goat. ali stopped that happening.