The top 30 (at least) at each weight , including P4P

Discussion in 'Classic Boxing Forum' started by frankenfrank, Jun 16, 2011.


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  1. Jorodz

    Jorodz watching Gatti Ward 1... Full Member

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    1)what is with discounting decision wins? I'm curious about the need to only include stoppage wins. Is that the reason for willie pep's unfathomable absence?? Also, holmes defeated no one. I don't care if he stopped every nobody he fought. They were nobodies. Lamotta holds wins over multiple hall of famers and champions (legitimate). Holmes does not, so that ends that argument quite easily. And there's no shame losing to Robinson, even multiple times.

    2)Cerdan's record was padded a bit true but no one claims it's the greatest of the era. HOwever, having a stoppage win over one of the toughest, HOF calibre middleweights of all time and wins over two of the best of the times in williams and abrahams trumps everything holmes accomplished and more.
     
    Jorodz, Aug 3, 2011
    Jorodz, Aug 3, 2011
    #76
  2. frankenfrank

    frankenfrank Boxing Junkie Full Member

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    There is a shame at losing to such a lighter man multiple times a stoppage included and always failing to stop him .
    LaMotta is one of those hero replacements in an era which its legacy is inflated despite being a strong era , LaMotta was nothing more than an ordinary contender in that era whose few accomplishments get way out of proportion.
    It's not like I put Keith Holmes in the top 25 , I might even rank him a bit lower than I did in the future after my research will advance .
    Cerdan's record is null except from the few overrated wins you mentioned.
    Why does a decision win over Georgie Abrahams counts so much ? do you even know if that win was decisive ?
     
    frankenfrank, Aug 4, 2011
    frankenfrank, Aug 4, 2011
    #77
  3. Boilermaker

    Boilermaker Boxing Junkie Full Member

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    If you put a lot of stock in fighters going the distance, mixed with their good wins, I am surprised you dont rate Joey Maxim a lot higher. P4P greats like Charles, Moore, Bivins and many others failed to put him away, and we all know what he did to Sugar Ray Robinson. Definitely a top 10 pound for pounder:good

    Though it will be interesting to see where you put the likes of Sharkey and Choynski. Blackburn, Young Corbett, Philadelphia Jack O Brien, Kid McCoy, Jem Carney, Emile Griffith, Carlos Palomino, Pete Herman, Pancho Villa, Doug Jones, and of Course Julio Cesar Green and Mark Breland should be very interesting to see if they rank, when you eventually expand your rankings.
     
    Boilermaker, Aug 4, 2011
    Boilermaker, Aug 4, 2011
    #78
  4. Jorodz

    Jorodz watching Gatti Ward 1... Full Member

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    yup, you know boxing. i'm pretty confident in that. which means this thread is just a **** about, but i'll play along.

    your criteria needs to be consistent:

    if only stopping people matters, jackson, vitali klitschko and julian jackson should be in your top 10.

    if resume matters, then keith holmes is nowhere near the top 200.

    which is it?
     
    Jorodz, Aug 4, 2011
    Jorodz, Aug 4, 2011
    #79
  5. frankenfrank

    frankenfrank Boxing Junkie Full Member

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    The most important is to stop (but really , cuts etc don't count) and not get stopped. Next in importance come the distance fights win or lose and there the important part is to KD but not get KDd and to hurt and not get hurt.
    Of course quality of opposition factors in just as well , and in p4p comparisons size factors too.
     
    frankenfrank, Aug 4, 2011
    frankenfrank, Aug 4, 2011
    #80
  6. frankenfrank

    frankenfrank Boxing Junkie Full Member

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    Joey Maxim was once annihilated @ 1 , rarely stopped anyone that counts , and was much bigger than Walker Smith so that win doesn't count too much.
    I think he is top 70 p4p though and that I included him in at least some of my lists , and also a top 25 @ 175
    I actually included some of these in my p4p list, the rest will be so low that they will probably be significantly below top 100 , what's the use at listing them.
     
    frankenfrank, Aug 4, 2011
    frankenfrank, Aug 4, 2011
    #81
  7. Jorodz

    Jorodz watching Gatti Ward 1... Full Member

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    for me, the quality of opposition and dominance factors in far more than just stopping somebody. it may actually be that we have vastly difference criteria: if you're looking at high KO % and low/non exisitent KO'd % then that's different. but honestly, resume REALLY seems to take a backseat in your criteria to hard numbers
     
    Jorodz, Aug 4, 2011
    Jorodz, Aug 4, 2011
    #82
  8. frankenfrank

    frankenfrank Boxing Junkie Full Member

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    not at all , i only count wins against good opposition , and stoppage losses count anyway , as long as no rumble in the jungle / slippery neutral corner / rushing in a cold opponent / after the bell KO etc took place.
    And for instance i find RJJ's distance win over Reggie Johnson impressing , but then it was a smaller and 32 years old reggie johnson whom skipped a weightclass , KOd a nobody , and rushed to get his paycheck .
     
    frankenfrank, Aug 4, 2011
    frankenfrank, Aug 4, 2011
    #83
  9. Jorodz

    Jorodz watching Gatti Ward 1... Full Member

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    fair enough but on those criteria, what are keith holmes best wins? name his top 5 then compare with greb's top 5 or pep's or arguello's? i mean the names is your p4p list often have zero notable wins (ie: Orlin Norris)
     
    Jorodz, Aug 4, 2011
    Jorodz, Aug 4, 2011
    #84
  10. bodhi

    bodhi Obsessed with Boxing Full Member

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    :lol:
     
    bodhi, Aug 4, 2011
    bodhi, Aug 4, 2011
    #85
  11. frankenfrank

    frankenfrank Boxing Junkie Full Member

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    Harry Greb could not have stopped Keith Holmes' opponents. :deal
    In Orlin Norris' case he should be renowned for his decision wins as it was a p4p list. Note that I rank him lower at h2h hw.
    holmes' top 5 wins : quincy taylor , richie woodhall , paul vaden , hacine cherifi , robert mccracken , and then he floored cherifi at his "losing" effort , and has a decision including a kd over another unstopped fighter in andrew council . about holmes' "losses" I already explained previously @ this thread.
    I admit it's far from being much but I doubt if greb could do it.
    Actually i really don't , greb couldn't . greb stopped nobody and couldn't stop no nobody.
     
    frankenfrank, Aug 4, 2011
    frankenfrank, Aug 4, 2011
    #86
  12. Jorodz

    Jorodz watching Gatti Ward 1... Full Member

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    dude, now i KNOW you're ****ing around. well played:thumbsup
     
    Jorodz, Aug 4, 2011
    Jorodz, Aug 4, 2011
    #87
  13. frankenfrank

    frankenfrank Boxing Junkie Full Member

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    you could have simply sealed it with a gay/spastic argument :yep
     
    frankenfrank, Aug 4, 2011
    frankenfrank, Aug 4, 2011
    #88
  14. Jorodz

    Jorodz watching Gatti Ward 1... Full Member

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    haha give me time, i'm at work
     
    Jorodz, Aug 4, 2011
    Jorodz, Aug 4, 2011
    #89
  15. Boilermaker

    Boilermaker Boxing Junkie Full Member

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    Why dont you rate John L Sullivan highly, with that criteria. He knocked out them all, and within 4 rounds usually. Shouldnt he edge up towards no 1 on both heavyweight and pound for pound lists?
     
    Boilermaker, Aug 4, 2011
    Boilermaker, Aug 4, 2011
    #90
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