Angelo Dundee’s take on Liston v Patterson and both Ali v liston fights

Some quotes taken from Angelo Dundee’s first book “I only talk winning”


page 189.


“Let me tell you, I thought cassius could do it. The public had been mesmerized by Listons two wins against Patterson. So he Kod Patterson in the first round both times. What did that mean?
Cassius was big and strong, weighing 210, could move, had a great jab and a good right cross. I really wasn’t worried. Let liston worry. I think Patterson froze in his first fight with liston and got himself so keyed up about not freezing in the second fight he froze again. I told you before, Patterson was a very good fighter, but being psyched out, if that was the case, can happen to any fighter. It isn’t a question of being afraid, because there isn’t a boxer that I would call a coward. To have the guts to get into the ring is bravery enough. Suffering from a tension that can numb the reflexes and immobilize the brain is a hazard of the fight game and can happen to the bravest of athletes. Normally it only happens for a second or two, and then the boxer begins to act on instinct and fight his way out of his tension, But if you happen to get a solid punch on the jaw during that second or two, you are in trouble. I tell you, many first round Ko decisions might have been reversed if the fight had gone on.”
　
Later on page 191 when asked by red smith after the title win if he feared for clay up against Listons KO power:
　
“who did liston knock out? Al westphal that’s all. Cleveland Williams was on his feet and besmanoff was stopped on cuts. Forget Patterson - he was psyched out. Boxing beat liston. Boxing and cassius clay.”

On the rematch with Liston:
　
“Some fans thought liston threw the first fight to get a big pay day in the return when he would show his real power. Any fight fan who thought that was wrong. Liston did want to win that first fight with ali. I have never known any champion who wanted to throw away his title, and Liston was no exception. It was going to be a lot harder winning his title back than defending it. Ali liked being a champion, and was not about to give it away. I thought the return would be a lot easier for ali, because he had torn away Listons cloak of invincibility - and with it a big chunk of listons confidence.
The one sided fight ended in one round. Muhammad had done to liston what liston had done to Patterson: psyched him out and Kod him in one round.
The press did not like it. Boxing got some bad publicity. There was an outcry for federal control, and there were the usual innuendos about “crooked fights”, but nothing came of it. Ali-Liston faded into history as another controversial bout and was replaced in the news with the next Ali fight.”

 

I think angelo is being a little harsh on liston here. what do you think?

 

Hence Ali denominated Patterson "The rabbit." He makes a good point about being psyched out, and about how that can immobilize just for enough time to get hit. The thing is... everyone knows Liston would've KOed Patterson regardless. It could have happened in round 2 or 3 at best for Patterson. He just could not regularly handle Liston's power. The same could be said of Spinks-Tyson. The problem with this sort of thinking is it doesn't reverse the course of fights the way Dundee suggests it could. It just becomes of a case how much longer can they last.

 

I agree. Tyson v spinks is a great example. It would certainly explain how floyd was later able to stand up to big guys like chuvalo, bonavena with out going over.

Do you think angelo was putting a portion of Listons aura down to hype? I get the impresion he respected Liston but thought the press were geting far too carried away with the patterson wins.

 

Ali probably hit Frazier in each of the their 3 fights with the same "k.o" punch he hit Liston with.

Liston's Group had the Rematch financial rights, Liston was Mob controlled, and the Dundees didn't have the cleanest hands themselves.

Can't remember if there were any betting odds for the Rematch posted pre-fight....it might have been "off-the-board".

 

This is intresting. Is there dirt on the dundees?

 

As for the theory that Liston would throw the first fight to get bigger money in a rematch ... didn't exactly work out that way, did it? How many people even paid to see the rematch? And certainly there wasn't a hefty "site fee."

 

Dundee is an old cocksucker.

 

Interestingly, Liston was a 7-5 favorite going into the rematch.

 

I think the mob infiltrated all parts of America by then but perhaps the same people have official titles now and operate legitimately using the same tricks? Angelo alluded to Chris telling him "I have business problems you don’t know about kid, better you don’t know". I think anyone making money was forced to take on "partners" but I don’t know what influence they had.

The impression I get about the mob is that rather than being puppet masters who told managers who was going to win they simply demanded a piece of all the action, and kept boxing a closed shop to anyone who wouldn’t cut them in. If "they" had a piece of all the big arenas and all the best fighters then you had to cut them in if you wanted your fighter to fight in the best arenas against the best fighters.

Angelo lost his new york licence for one year when he was invited to sit at a table in a dinner with Frankie carbo that was bugged. That’s probably pretty damning, but I don’t know of any other hard evidence.

 

Was he?

 

He's right there.

 

Exactly. Floyd was no coward but I think he unintentionally allowed Sonny too much respect and Sonny interpreted that as weakness. Floyd was under incredible pressure.