Who had the better win over Ali

:good He was also faster and in better physical condition.

 

In heavyweight history or simply fighting in 71 ?

I personally believe Superfight 1 was Ali's most courageous performance ... after the long exile and two fast fights his body was no where near ready to fight a prime Frazier ... look at how terrible he looked against Bonavena, a fact often over looked due to the last round semi-flke KO ... for that Ali to go a very competitive 15 against a prime Frazier was an exceptional accomplishment ..

I feel there were multiple heavyweights in history who would have feasted on that Ali ....

 

agree good post :good

 

Frazie's winr was over the closest to Prime Ali, especially after Ali beat Foreman and Norton many years after.

Frazier had the style to trouble Ali and even though Frazier never hit the same physical form again all of the Ali/Frazier fights were hell for Ali

Norton also put the pressure on Ali well and most fell he won 2 of the 3 fights the first fight was dominant but not as dominant as Frazier was in the FOTC, the classic KD in the 15th and Frazier hurt Ali seriously in the 11th for a dominant win

 

Yes, but aided by some foolish negligence on Ali's part. Muhammad had an impacted wisdom tooth on the left side of his jaw which caused the creation of the second round fracture which may have been the difference between winning or losing. Ali continually talked up that broken jaw to promote their subsequent bouts in the absence of the usual dramatic acrimony, but I've sometimes wondered what might have happened if Jerry Quarry, Bonavena, Mac Foster, or Bugner (right before Norton I, when that impacted tooth must have been really ripe, and Joe B. had the right hand to exploit if he pulled the trigger and fought to win) had gotten to it first. (If somebody like the relatively vulnerable Bob Foster or Patterson had broken it, Muhammad would have eliminated him pretty quickly.)

Ironic that Ali is stereotyped as vulnerable to the left hook, as only a hard and properly placed right to the head could have inflicted that fracture. (Muhammad certainly didn't duck many hookers, did he? Frazier 3X, Norton 3X, Patterson 2X, the two Fosters, JQ 2X, Chuvalo 2X, Cooper II-as Futch expressed to Norton, Ali's lean was really geared for slipping the hook to the head.)

Norton may very well have won that first fight even without Ali's jaw being fractured. Futch had a good strategy, Ken executed well, and 221 was a substantially higher than optimal weight for a precision instrument like Muhammad's body. He was always at his best under 215, and I'm surprised he came in that high for the FOTC after scaling 212 for Bonavena. If he could have maintained control of his appetite and diet, 212 should have been his maximum target weight throughout his career.

 

Agreed. 212 was indeed Muhammad's best weight,although he still looked brilliant against George Foreman and Jerry Quarry (second fight) when he scaled 216/17 pounds.

 

Excellent post. Every Ali opponent after FOTC at least knew that he could be beaten.

 

I'm not so sure that 212 still was his best weight in his 30's. I think he became a bit too obsessed with that weight and perhaps trained too hard on occassion to make it. I'm under the suspiscion that the 217 he came in against for example Quarry II may just have been his optimum weight at that time. He was a bit trimmer, but could hold it while still being trim.

 

I do feel as though he looked his best for Frazier II at 212 during his second career, and he was able to use his legs well at 212 for Norton II. He was notorious for raiding the freezer at his Deer Lake camp for ice cream at night, so it's small wonder he had to apply himself more than would otherwise have been necessary to get his weight down.

Mac Foster was his first match after turning 30, and to me he looked all right competing over the championship distance at 226, actually making the fight over the first five rounds to try delivering on a knockout prediction. But for stylistic reasons, he had to be in outstanding shape to beat Norton, and Frazier had a bit of Marciano in him with respect to training habits. If Ali could get from a career highs of 227 for Mathis in 1971, and 226 for Mac Foster, down to 212 for Frazier II and Norton II, then I do believe getting down to 212 would have been doable for him at any later time in his career. I don't think 212 would have ever left him drained, weakened and underweight like 199 did for Louis against Conn. It took Ali three and a half weeks to get from 230 for Young to 220 for Dunn. He said he was around 217 in the days prior to the rematch with Leon Spinks, and of course made 217 for Holmes at age 38.

 

Frasier's first victory is better than Norton's, but Norton out performed Frasier over the course of his trilogy.

 

I agree that he looked very good in the rematch against Frazier. He was allowed to pace the fight after his pleasure, though, thorugh a lot of holding. Against Norton in the rematch he looked perhaps his speediest after the comeback for the first four rds, but then quickly wilted.

Maybe, I'm nitpicking here, though. He looked quick and sharp, definitely. It just seems a given to me that a man's best weight at 25 isn't the same as his best at 32.

Ps. Yes, he made 217 for the Holmes' fight, but only thorugh medicating himself with disastrous consequences.

 

We have to do our best to separate the statistics from reality; yes Ali was in exile but he also looked fit and fought wonderfully. Frazier was the clear winner but it was a close win, and as the headlines ran the next day 'he hardly looked like a winner'. Joe almost killed himself in trying to win and was a puffy, winded mess at the end.

Ali was quick, durable and punching with power that night, putting his punches together very nicely. Ted Spoon will concede that tactically, Ali looked a little bemused at times but surely there cannot be too many other men who would have bested him that night. It's funny, Ali lost but in many ways he showed so much more than he usually did.

To dismiss Ali is to take a lot of credit away from Joe. [FONT=&quot][/FONT]

 

watch bonavena fight before frazier. that tells it's own story.

 

That was down to ring rust without doubt. Three rounds against Jerry Quarry after a 3 1/2 year lay off is hardly going to shake any rust off. Mind you.Muhammad was still ahead on points coming into the last round,and was the only man ever to stop 'Ringo'

 

The abrupt and premature end to JQ I has usually been framed as an exceedingly unfortunate outcome for Jerry, but what if he hadn't been cut, and that one had gone the championship distance? Muhammad certainly would have been belaboring, but Jerry had some stamina issues. The disparity in height and reach still would have been immense for a short armed counter puncher like Jerry to overcome, and we know how Ali could suck it up in a crisis. Ali UD 15 JQ in Atlanta followed by Bonavena could change the complexion of the FOTC in some ways worth contemplating. How is the FOTC remembered without that knockdown? Was Muhammad himself the real victim of the abbreviated comeback in Atlanta?