Dempsey, Liston, Holyfield, Frazier.

clay was not clowning at the moment he got caught, I dont thnk he was stalling for time either, cooper was putting a lot of heat on him. maybe he underestimated cooper, maybe the magnitude of the event had clays head in the clouds. People forget what a big promotion that was, wembley stadium, that fight was as big as a world title fight.

Clay was a lot better in his next fight with Liston, he upped his game somewhat, but angelo dundee was not happy with him in all of those rounds.

 

while not proven i think it's commonly accepted he was carrying cooper to ensure his prediction came to pass. that was a lot of the interest in clay, his fight predictions and leading to liston he wanted to keep the streak alive (though he'd already ****ed up a prediction or two)

 

Yes, I feel that actually watching the fights interferes with the data.

I'm sorry the Clay of Liston 1 starts skittish and picks up confidence while he moves through rounds. Liston meanwhile grinds down, looks old, couldn't corner his own shadow and defines the term "ponderous". Perhaps it is you who needs to rewatch this bout.

 

its only commonly accepted by people who have yet to see the fight. The prediction did pan-out for clay, because he was #1, a special fighter after all and #2, cooper was already cut. The bell allowed clay to recover (regardless of the extra seconds) and he concentrated on coopers eye with a torn glove.
The cooper fight was clay's biggest fight up until that point, he could not afford to carry an Englishman in England. Cooper was not unlike Doug Jones who was also not ideal style-wise for clay. Liston could not cash in on clay in the way Jones and cooper had success because he was that much rustier and a different kind of fighter.

 

not arguing that it was unwise but i've seen the fight and the difference between rounds was quite dramatic. he ****ed about, got hurt BAD and went for the kill. i think he was dicking around until the knockdown to be honest

 

I cannot blame you for incorectly thinking this. There are a lot of edited versions out there, the espn one cuts half of the first round out missing a wide eyed clay screaming at the ref for allowing cooper to rough him up. Clay is seriously surprised. The espn tape is missing the entire second round, another strong round for cooper. clay is not dicking around until the last minute of round 3 after the second and more serious cut opens up on henrys brow but it is only because this gives him respite whilst Henry is dealing with his altered vision through the blood. round four and clays under the cosh again...
I just reviewed it myself the full fight including the 6 seconds extra after the knockdown. let me know what you make of clays "dicking around"
http://youtu.be/XxX9Ql_LZtM

 

Think it was Suzie that said Ali went from boy to man in that Liston fight. I've sort of took that line from him if I remember it correctly because I agree with that statement. The weight doesn't really subscribe to such a theory, but weight can be misleading. Looking at the footage, Ali looks bigger, sturdier, and just more mature from the Banks & Cooper fights to the Liston fight. I sincerely believe he was not the same man or fighter from those fights, and much closer along the lines to the fighter that developed into the one we saw against Patterson and Cooper II. Although, his peak probably being a bit later on with his fights against Terrel, Williams, and Folley.

Ali continued and probably finished this boy to man growth from Liston I to Liston II, because I believe his specific measurements are even bigger than they were before despite him weighing 4 pounds less in the rematch. Although, maybe the measurements are misleading/wrong too.

 

i will always choose the quicker ali in all departments - footwork, handspeed, reaction speed etc so i choose clay as he would've been harder to catch. ali in fight 2 v frazier used faster movement like the young clay 64 could do well.

 

Some people will question this, but I would say Frazier.

Ali was still on a learning curve when Liston beat him. The version that Frazier beat was a bit slower, but he was an absolute mental monster, with the will and confidence to impose himself on anyone.

 

another interesting question would be who fought the better Liston on the night: ali or eddie machen?

 

Wouldn't that be a no brainer in favour of Machen?