Jack Johnson v Ezzard Charles 15rds?

Discussion in 'Classic Boxing Forum' started by mcvey, Aug 25, 2011.


  1. McGrain

    McGrain Diamond Dog Staff Member

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    I HAVE emailed them.

    And you can answer these questions:


    1) Why do you repeatedly ignore my requests for you to name, and produce/recreate your claimed primary source on the fourm?


    2) Why do you ignore these primary source accounts of Johnson's condition in the O'Brien fight?:

    The New York Times: "Johnson looked tired in the fourth round."

    The Times Dispatch: "Johnson was not in good condition."

    Points Daily Journal: "Johnson appeared slow on his feet, and appeared not to be in the best conidtion."

    Referee McGuigan, quoted in The Bakersfield Californian: "Johnson looked tired."

    Jack O'Brien () in The Telegraph-Herald: "I was better against Johnson because I was in better condition."

    Bakersfield Californian: "Johnson looked a bit bulky around the middle."

    Finally, The St.John Sun, from before the fight:

    "Of the two, O'Brien seems to have done the more conscientious work...Johnson has taken on some flesh."



    Do these reports, which you have previously dismissed as one reporters opinion :lol: convince you that Johnson may have been out of shape and tired?



    As an aside, why do you think you can ignore me I don't do research on YOUR position?
     
  2. McGrain

    McGrain Diamond Dog Staff Member

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    And...he's gone.

    Just curious, I went back and counted how many times I've asked Mendoza to

    1) produce/name his primary French source which he claimed to have in this thread

    2) to react to the primary reports he begged me to produce describing Johnson's condition for the O'Brien fight

    without his responding.

    Eight and six respectively.

    I also counted how many times I asked him about his secret correspondence with historians, which we now know are to secret for him to even talk about - five times before he decided to tell me that.

    Bizarre behaviour, even for the internet.
     
  3. KuRuPT

    KuRuPT Boxing Junkie Full Member

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    Aside from the current "argument"... So people believe Charles had the Chin and defensive to keep an aggressive Johnson off him and not get KO'd?
     
  4. mcvey

    mcvey VIP Member Full Member

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    " having his way with Jim, but from the 6th started losing direction and did not attack any more.

    Johnson had a nice style with which he conquered Burns and defended the title against Jeffries, but now tried to recover from three years of inactivity and look as good as he did. But by the 7th round, Johnson's broken face read defeat, which reminded me of the last minutes that Jeffries spent in the ring with Johnson, when all of White America wanted him to beat the hated negro, who was called <the yellow dog> !


    It wasn't beautiful boxing, but Johnson, with a splendid proportionate upper body, was swift on his feet and quick with his left, which he could double up very fast, often accompanied by <the clinch>, and a frightening uppercut.

    But Jack had not recovered from the lay off, and no matter the value of a boxer - no one repairs three years of ring rust.


    In the 5th round, Johnson got mad as a violent right swing from Jim met the elbow of his rival [the left is also noted, but i think they're refererring to the left side of Johnson], fracturing the radius. From that point on, Jim's enormous rival had to play defensive.

    Jim got busy and encouraged, but felt victory slip away, so he doubled his audacity, while Jack's smile betrayed in the sense that he was hiding a major disstress. The public became wild towards the end. [i'm missing half of what's being said in this paragraph]
    It was not a beautiful match, but at least sincere combat, completely sincere. And this observation was sufficient."
    LaFiagaro, 20th Dec.1913

    and on the previous day, in the same paper announcing the fight;
    that absolutedly confirms the scheduled 10 round duration;"Jack Johnson...un combat un dix reprises de trois minuies contre le nergo Jim Johnson." LaFigaro, Dec.19th, 1913.
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  5. mcvey

    mcvey VIP Member Full Member

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    This is the N Y Times account. The fights scheduled 10rd distance is clearly shown.

    http://query.nytimes.com/mem/archive-free/pdf?_r=1&res=9806E1D6103FE633A25753C2A9649D946296D6CF
     
  6. Mendoza

    Mendoza Hrgovic = Next Heavyweight champion of the world. banned Full Member

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    Great, be sure to post what they say word for word here.

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  7. McGrain

    McGrain Diamond Dog Staff Member

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    Mendoza, you've spent the last three pages telling me what to do and when without responding to the simplest of questions yourself.

    I'll post what I see fit, when.

    If you want to be privy to the entire conversation, you should have had it yourself, you incredible weirdo.

    I AM NOT ASKING YOU ABOUT PRIVATE CORRESPONDENCE YOU ****ING LUNATIC :lol:

    And you're not sharing yours, but i'm going to post mine "word for word"?

    1) Name and reproduce/link the primary source you've claimed to have seen.

    2) Post your reaction to the mutiple sources describing Johnson as tired, out of shape, and having "taken on flesh" in numerous pre and post fight sources, including eyewitness testimony by the referee:


    The New York Times: "Johnson looked tired in the fourth round."

    The Times Dispatch: "Johnson was not in good condition."

    Points Daily Journal: "Johnson appeared slow on his feet, and appeared not to be in the best conidtion."

    Referee McGuigan, quoted in The Bakersfield Californian: "Johnson looked tired."

    Jack O'Brien () in The Telegraph-Herald: "I was better against Johnson because I was in better condition."

    Bakersfield Californian: "Johnson looked a bit bulky around the middle."

    Finally, The St.John Sun, from before the fight:

    "Of the two, O'Brien seems to have done the more conscientious work...Johnson has taken on some flesh."




    :lol: wtf
     
  8. McGrain

    McGrain Diamond Dog Staff Member

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    :lol: yeah
     
  9. Swarmer

    Swarmer Patrick Full Member

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    Its mind numbing to watch people obsess over something like 5 pounds in these heavyweight fights, absolutely nonsensical.
     
  10. Seamus

    Seamus Proud Kulak Full Member

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    I find it tantalizing to watch two people go over the same arguments over and over again... ad nauseum was never so applicable.
     
  11. McGrain

    McGrain Diamond Dog Staff Member

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    It's not an "argument" at all...it's me asking questions and him just flatly, flatly refusing to respond or even acknowledge that they exist...then saying something else almost anti-Zen in its total lack of self-awareness...and then vanishing :lol:



    The perfection of the bizareness is almost exquisite. For example, when he posts that he's not going to talk to me unless I email the editor of CBZ - for evidence in support of his position - he is quoting a post below where i tell him i've already emailed them. :lol:

    The first fact is just as bizarre as the second leading to an overall pefect storm of bizareness.
     
  12. Seamus

    Seamus Proud Kulak Full Member

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    When is the great reveal where we discover your are the same person?

    In regards to the Johnson-Johnson bout, I had read somewhere regarding the 20 round distance, but in my research there was no concrete to support this, including the previous day newspapers from Paris. What is to be known from that bout is that Jack wasn't too hot and was booed roundly. However, there seems to be disagreement as to whether Battling Jim was doing so well as to have Jack staggering at the final bell or the crowd's derision was because of the inactivity (there were chants of "fake"..)
     
  13. McGrain

    McGrain Diamond Dog Staff Member

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    :ibutt:lol:
     
  14. mcvey

    mcvey VIP Member Full Member

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    "In the third the champion launched an attack that sent the younger man reeling.Then for no apparent reason he pulled back.

    There were cries of "Fake!" Some customers called for their money back.
    In fact the champion had fractured his left forearm slamming the challengers head and had to fight the next seven rounds with just one hand,clinching whenever he could.

    At the end ,it was the younger man who was breathing hard.

    The referee declared the bout a draw.

    The crowd unaware of Johnson's injury,hissed both men"

    Geoffrey C Ward ," Unforgiveable Blackness"


    No mention of 20 rounds or , of the fight being shortened.
     
  15. Seamus

    Seamus Proud Kulak Full Member

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    That's about the kindest slant one could take on Jack regarding this fight. But given the fawning, overly laudatory tone of UB, I am not suprised. There's a lot more out there on the fight than this. Including the oft repeated contention that Johnson was reeling at the end of the fight and lucky not to be stopped. If I have time, I will post some of the quotes later.