Did Dempsey take a dive?

Rocky, well thats interesting, Ive now been called a racist and a reverse racist all within about a month. Talk about a pathetic knee jerk reaction. In truth I have a problem with it because its ridiculous revisionism which has no basis in fact.

And yes, Bert, less than a month ago you posted this:

http://www.eastsideboxing.com/forum/showthread.php?t=333282

Do you think by flooding forums with this flawed article, which hinges on the words of people close to Dempsey spoken YEARS after the events, you can somehow rewrite history? If so then you better start rewriting how the unbeatable Dempsey continued to have sub par performances over journeyman level (at best) opponents that year and the year previous.

 

Why should I be more impressed by Cox's article than by primary sources - next-day reports, as well as other boxing coverage in Salt Lake, New York (as Dempsey had three bouts in NY), and California (explaining why he didn't fight in Utah after that) newspapers during those years, some of which I posted on two previous threads on this subject. Cox is known to be often inaccurate in his write-ups, relying too much on secondary sources, making false assumptions, etc.

 

How have you been recently burt? Are you ill these days? I noticed that in the past couple of months your posting style has changed a little bit... Anything going on?

 

dempsey is the most controversial character on the classic and any article that provides insight into his near mythical career is valuable

 

You can look at it anyway you want Burt but prior to the fall or winter of 1917/1918 Dempsey was an unknown, unproven, and fairly middling fighter who struggled regularly with the likes of Meehan, Norton, Keller, Johnson, . He had been dropped and hurt by lesser fighters than even a faded Flynn. He was known to be taken the distance by middleweights and LHWs and add to this the fact that there is not a single shred of evidence that the fight was thrown, indeed there is much evidence to the contrary, and you basically have a couple of fanboys clinging to stories which were written for good copy YEARS later. And yes, your right, Dempsey showed that he developed past the raw fighter who got LEGITIMATELY KOD by an old and faded Flynn so taking that into account you can stop continuously posting this tired article by Cox (who I happen to like but completely disagree with here) and move on.

And for the record, Green was a lot better than a mediocre fighter, had you been there you would know that. If you wanna dredge up suspicious fights/dives why not bring up Green's tank job (to which he admitted, unlike the denials that Dempsey issued to his dying day) over your hero Graziano. God forbid...

 

Anomalous results do happen in boxing sometimes. We have Hurricane Carter KO 1 Emille Griffith on youtube, Leonard Morrow KO 1 Archie Moore was avenged in ten by the Mongoose (sending Morrow to the hospital), and even first round knockouts have been exchanged. True, anybody can get caught cold. But Dempsey had at least six first round knockouts himself at this point, and wouldn't be expected to get caught cold. Fireman Flynn KO 1 Dempsey is really bizarre.

Yes, Flynn was a highly experienced veteran, and he was acknowledged as a heavy hitter. In September 1911, he beat the living **** out of big Carl Morris, turning the face into a grotesquely swollen and bloody mask. But he was now 38 years old and way past his 1902-1912 prime. He was coming off knockout defeats to Fulton and Dillon, on a six fight winless streak that began in September 1915, and he had never, ever, stopped any opponent in the opening round. After that upset of Dempsey, the only win Flynn would produce over an opponent with a substantial winning record would be when Tiger Flowers was unable to continue with an injured hand after five in March 1923, down in Mexico City, for the Fireman's final career win.

Stories about Dempsey include that his right hand was smashed prior to that match while setting up pins in a bowling alley (one of the numerous odd jobs he took between bouts to survive), and that his camp agreed to accept a $500 dollar payoff to lie down rather than cancel the fight due to this injury, also that his brother Bernie threw in the towel after three knockdowns, rather than Jack lying on the floor for referee Armstrong's count. I'd like to read more of what the Ogden Examiner wrote about it the day after, aside from the blurb posted on boxrec about the resulting initiative to try banning prizefighting in Utah as a result.

What eyewitnesses Al Auerbach, John Derks and Hardy Downing were quoted as saying to the Chicago Tribune from February 15th to March 8th 1920 has to be addressed and debunked successfully if doubt is to be removed from the legitimacy of this outcome. Exactly one year later, Jack took barely a minute to knock Flynn out of the ring. Just how many such extreme reversals have taken place between opponents over the last century in an interval of time as brief as a year? (Even Patterson-Johansson I & II don't measure up to this degree of radical shift.)

 

LOL .... funny Burt ... too many like usual (at times myself included) taking too much too serious here !

 

Now, that would be a good discussion, as to who the most controversial character is here. While most Dempsey threads can be counted on to generate numerous pages, Duran and Tyson also produce good fodder for passionate discourse. (Oddly, Liston doesn't seem to provoke quite the same kick, at least not to the extent I might have expected.)

 

Johnson and Jeffries. Nobody seems to really rageout about the other turn of the century fighters, although I think i've seen blood vessels burst in regard to Fitzsimmons.

 

:rofl:roflSeriously, i was just about to come into this thread and make some sarcastic comments. One being in reference toward your totally out of context and completely baseless reverse racism claims

 

Isn't there better evidence of a sucker punch than a dive?

 

Dempsey's wife and everybody else around him has stated that he took a dive. His wife said "They offered him more money to lose, we needed the money, so he lost."

Jack Dempsey is the only one who has never admitted to taking a dive. I find it very hard to believe that a fighter of Jack's caliber was put away by Jim Flynn in just a few seconds.