Clay v liston in 63: any difference?

yeah I heard about the Ingo thing too, he apparently embarrassed him, I would expect that though to be brutally honest. I think Ali wins in 63 and I'd be putting money down if I had the power of hindsight, no doubt in my mind, I think he wins big personally. I understand what you're saying, and when I said the word 'never' I wasn't talking about Ali being a novice, because I think it's pretty much a a true reflection of what this match up really is that we're having to make Ali a novice to give Liston a good chance of winning, so I wasn't even thinking on those lines.

But yeah, if we're gunna make Ali a novice then Liston's got a better chance.

 

Ali was prime in the early 1970's but still a very good fighter in the mid 60's.

 

Ali was in his prime in 1967 in his fight with Cleveland Williams. Or even maybe between 1968-1970 but we will never know, but I would say at 1967 he was at his best.

 

Depends if the mob is involved

 

Clay (202 lb) barely got by 188 lb Doug Jones in 1963.

Liston would have been at 215 lbs.

Clay had become much stronger a year later.

 

I dont know if I would agree that Ali was "prime" in the 70s (although an argument can be made IMO) but its a complete, uneducated media myth that Ali was prime when he fought Williams. This victory was blown WAY out of wack by certain people in the media who either didnt understand or didnt care that Williams was never the same after being shot in the stomach and certainly had not looked good against a top opponent in several years. He was basically on the comeback trail and hadnt really looked that great even against the setups he was picked. What Williams was was a name and one that had been very recognizable. Because Ali performed so well against that shell of a fighter hiding behind a name this is seen as his prime. It wasnt, at least not because of that performance. Nobody calls his fights with Chuvalo or Terrell "his prime" because even in beating (some might say dominating) those two he didnt look unstoppable and yet, coincidently those are the two guys he fought before his exile who were in THEIR prime. This is why I say that you can argue that when he came back in the 1970s he was in his prime. Because he came back against a class of fighter (Bonavena, Quarry, Frazier, Ellis, and Mathis) who were better, if not head and shoulders better than those he fought before his exile, and for the most part in their primes, and he showed extremely well against them.

 

williams was never ever proven at world level before he was shot anyway. Ali looked so good against that level of opponent because williams was a step down from all the other chalengers he faced. still, ali would not have looked better against that kind of target practice at a later date.

 

His punch resistance against Doug Jones and Henry Cooper in 1963 did not look adequate for withstanding Liston's shots to the head. Nor did his own power against these 180 pounders look sufficient for putting a dent in Sonny.

The speed and mobility would still be a major issue for Liston to contend with though, and the upstart would have been on very high alert for dealing with his power. The quantum improvement in Clay from Cooper I to Liston I was akin to that in Holmes from Arrington to Shavers I, more dramatic than the devolution in Sonny from Patterson II to Clay.

 

:good

 

I was thinking about the Jones fight myself. Clay,as was,would still have been good enough to beat Liston in that year.

 

Ali was tooling about against Cooper though, that's why he got put down, he was trying to predict the round and didn't want to put him away before the 5th round which he predicted, you saw a different fighter in that 5th round when he started fighting properly

Ali wouldn't screw around against Liston, who probably scared him, he said to Dundee when walking to the ring 'so do you think we can pull this off' despite months of ridiculing Liston

 

Liston knocks him out in 2, maybe 3 rounds. Liston's prime was as an amateur as anybody who studies the records knows, he was washed up when Fraudhammad got to him, prime for prime Ali does much better though, he might see round 5.

 

Patterson would also have knocked Clay out in '63