My ten greatest heavyweights

Hi Ed,

We know Jeffries avoided Jack Johnson. He fought Griffin, Armstrong and Jackson. Were they the best black fighters out there he could have fought? With all due respect, I think not. Here's why:

Peter Jackson was 37 or 38 when Jeffries fought him in 1898. According to Box Rec, Jackson's last win was in 1992 when he beat Denny Kelliher who had a record of 11wins, 15 losses and 12 draws. Jeffries should have been ashamed of himself for fighting Jackson. Probably Jackson needed a payday so he could afford some bacon and beans.

You say Griffin was good because he beat Jack Johnson. Yeah, Griffin was probably pretty good when he beat Johnson. But he was robbing the cradle. Johnson was just starting with a record of 4 wins, 2 losses and 2 draws. Griffin had 21 wins, 3 losses, 6 draws. Griffin would not have beaten Johnson in his prime, IMO.

Armstrong's career record was 16 wins-11 losses-5 draws. Not bad, but he wasn’t among the best out there (although he did claim to be the coloured hw champ in 1896.)


Here’s a list of the coloured heavyweight champions (according to Wikipedia) who reigned during Jeffries’ career. He didn’t fight any of these guys (except Johnson, and he lost, and like I said, I don't think Armstrong was among the best).


Bob Armstrong, December 21, 1896
Frank Childs, 1 January 29, 1898
George Byers 1 September 14, 1898

Frank Childs 2 March 16, 1901
Denver Ed Martin 1 February 24, 1902

Jack Johnson, Feb. 5, 1903

Sam McVey Feb. 20, 1909

Joe Jeannette April 17, 1909

Sam Langford claimed the title during Jeanette's reign after Jack Johnson refused to defend the World Heavyweight Championship against Langford

I think Jeffries not only ducked Johnson, I think he ducked most of the better black competition.

 

If Jeffries had fought Johnson or Childs or Martin (who was 6'6") or Joe Jeannette or McVey or Sam Langford, then I would say he fought the best. But since he didn't, I say he ducked the best.

 

See, that´s the difference between you and Janitor. You look at what may have happened if "...", while Janitor looks at what actually happened. The latter makes more sense.

 

But Ed, all these top black guys managed to fight each other during Jeffries' prime years. They all knew who the best fighters were. But Jeffries just couldn't be bothered. Maybe he did want to stay home with his wife, but I still think it cannot be said that he fought the best of his time.

In society's eye at that time, it was OK, understandable, pardonable not to want to fight a black boxer. The bible was quoted to justify it. Even in my day growing up it was acceptable to have white schools and black ones. The black schools got the white schools' uniforms after the white kids had worn them out. And we did not play each other, ever. Jeffries knew most of his society was behind him on this. We'll never know what his real motivations were to not fight the best of his time. But the fact remains that he didn't. That's why I can't see him as an ATG.

 

But Jeffries fought black fighters. McVey and Jeanette rose to prominence after Jeffries retired, Langford was far away from beeing a champ and said himself he would fight anyone ... but Jeffries. Johnson got beaten by Hart in 1904. So, there were a few month where Jeffries-Johnson was possible, not more. Retirement is no duck. And he did fight Johnson in the end. You can talk all you want but those are the facts. You can´t knock Jeffries fo not fighting Langford, McVey and Jeanette. And the knock for Johnson shouldn´t be a big one.

Jeffries had only few fights. True. But look at who he faced. He faced contenders during his first ten fights. Which champ did that outside of him? Leon Spinks that´s it. And he was merely lucky. Jeffries beat all the relevant contenders of his day but one and two former champs. Tell me how many fighters achieved what he did and beat so many recognized contenders and champs in just 23 fights? That´s an amazing achievement on it´s own and compares with most other champs pretty well.

 

I didn't say that we would ever know who they were, but the black fighters themselves did because they were closer to the action than we will ever be, and they managed to find time to fight each other during Jeffries' prime. I think Jeffries knew who they were, too. He just couldn't find the time, for whatever reason.

But if Jeffries hadn't ducked Johnson and had fought some better black fighters, he would have a better claim to be an ATG.

And I don't blame him for retiring, preferring to grow alfalfa and bang his wife rather than get banged. He had enough money. Why get greedy? Me, I wouldn't have come out of retirement to fight Johnson if I'd been him.

 

I don't where you got your info, Bodhi. His first ten opponents were:

Hank Lorraine, 1895-10-29 Box Rec doesn't have any info on Lorraine
Dan Long 1896-07-02 Box Rec doesn't have any info on Long
Hank Griffin 1896-12-01 was 6-0-1 when he fought Jeff.
Theodore Van Buskirk 1897-04-09, 4-0-2 was never a contender, retired with a record of 6-2-2
Henry Baker 1897-05-18 His record was 4-4-4.He retired with a record of 6-7-4. Was never a contender.
Gus Ruhlan 6-2-0, fought a draw with Jeffries, was later a contender
Joe Choynski 34-6-2 was a legitimate contender
Joe Goddard 31-5-7 was 41 years old when he fought Jeff, totally shot, look at his record
Peter Jackson was 38 and had not won a fight in 6 years when he fought Jeff. A contender? Not by a long shot.
Mexican Pete Everest 21-3-0

I can agree that Everest seemed to be a legitimate contender when Jeff fought him, as was Joe Choynski. Gus Ruhlan later became a contender, as did Hank Griffin. But 6 of the 10 of Jeff's first fights were fought against unknowns and shot ex-greats.

 

Jeffries retired in May, 1905. From Box Rec: "With no more credible white challengers on the horizon, Jeffries announced his retirement from boxing in 1905."

There may have been no more credible white challengers, but there were some black ones. From Box Rec's biography of Jeffries: "The champion was running out of possible challengers. After Sharkey, Ruhlin, Corbett, and Fitzsimmons, there remained no more bankable names among white opponents. Joe Jeanette and Jack Johnson, two of the leading African American heavyweights of the day, had issued repeated verbal challenges for Jeffries to face them, but the champion had no intention of upsetting the majority of the public by allowing a black man a shot at the championship."

Like you said, Martin was the real deal. Jeff could have fought him. Johnson thought he was a credible contender and he fought him before Jeff retired, when Martin was just off that 15 fight winning streak in 1993. Johnson beat him on points in 20 rounds.

Childs fought Johnson to a draw before Jeff retired, blown up middleweight or not. Jeff could have fought him.

Jeff could also have fought McVey. Johnson (who Jeff was ducking) thought he was a worthy opponent and fought him 3 times before Jeff's retirement.

He could also have fought Black Bill. Johnson did. He was 11-2 when Johnson beat him.

And Joe Jeannette challenged Jeff to fight before he retired. He could have fought Jeannette.

Jeff didn't see any credible white contenders on the horizon, and in that day and age he didn't need to fight the credible black contenders, so he retired.

I don't blame him. Nobody likes getting hit in the head.

 

If Jeffries had beaten Johnson and any one of the following, Denver Ed Martin or Joe Jeannette or Frank Childs or Sam McVey before he retired I could see how you could justifiably have him at No. 5 on your ATG list, given your stated criteria.

Me, I am an H2H freak, and he could never make that list.

However, Ed, your thread has inspired me to try a new tack besides H2H.

My criteria could include the best H2H (The Klits and Lewis), longevity (Louis), and quality of opponents. But also I could score on sheer beauty in the ring (like Ali and Maxie Baer), excitement and entertainment (maybe Ali and Marciano and Walcott, hell even 2 ton Tony). My greatest heroes out of the ring (Ali and Joe Louis and Max Schmelling).

If I ever get around to it. LOL

 

Yeah because for a fighter fighting former greats in his first 10 fights is clearly a sign of a weak resume you are right. How many hws can say they fought 6 fighters who were contenders in his first 10 fights? That´s a sign of how stacked his resume is and not how weak it is.

I don´t see how Jeff not fighting Childs, Martin, McVey and Jeanette is a problem. He beat fighters who beat Childs and Martin. How many fights did McVey and Jeanette have? Johnson get´s a lot of sh*t on here because he faced infant versions of McVey and Jeanette. At the same time as Jeff should have fought them according to you. If he would have faced them you´d be one of the first to critizise him for fighting inexperienced guys anyway. All those guys were good fighters at the time but the leading contenders where white with the exception of Johnson. And Jeff fought and beat them, with the exception of Johnson who he fought later on anyway and who got beaten by Hart around that time.

Sorry but you really have to go to length to critizise Jeff. He cleaned the division out thoroughly and I think only Ali, Louis and Marciano have an argument for doing a better job. And he was dominant while doing so. And he did all that in 23 fights which is amazing in itself. IMO Jeff is a solid Top10 guy.