Joe Calzaghe's 46-0 vs Floyd Mayweather's 42-0

Really!?!:admin

Conteh is the most stylish boxer we've ever produced.

 

Don't worry, he knows nothing of Conteh.

 

No probs, I've cut out of lot of your post to get to the crux of the disagreement we seem to be having. I don't agree that weight jumping is automatically superior to long-term dominance in one weight class, it's all about the fights you take across your career. Different strokes for different folks I guess, but Floyd has been more than capable of climbing in weight, and very rarely outsized (Oscar and Ortiz being two obvious examples; Corrales is equalised by him already struggling with the weight, but that's nit picking and a totally different discussion of course) and, despite his weight jumping, his ring record isn't full of awe-inspiring scalps. Even if we all concede they were the best available opponents it's still nothing to get too excited about IMO, though I give him credit for dealing with most of them in an efficient and hassle-free way. That doesn't mean I would give him more credit than a long-time dominator of a single weight class. I think that's what you are saying, as I say, not for me :good

Thanks for your response though; certainly a cut above most arguments I've seen.

Olu, when we're not being petty, we have had some fantastic discussions, and I really appreciate the kudos from a genuine boxing insider such as yourself :good

As per the part of your post I've highlighted, I'd say it's a common misconception that I've got 'appreciation' issues with Floyd. My point is not of diminishing Floyds talents, but merely giving credit to those that also looked as good as he did, and against better opposition.

I guess Floyd gets more credit because he's current, and on everybodys minds. But for me, I get angry when I see things like 'greatest defensive fighter ever' or 'most skileld fighter ever'. I think it's downright ignorant to say this, when there are other fighters, as skilled (IMO; obviously you and I disagree on my main point of reference, Sumbu, Atberry does not, so I'm obviously not the only one) who don't get the credit, despite proving their skillsets against people that could test them more.

Do I think Floyd would've outmanouvered Cotto and Margarito? Yes, but I won't give the credit for doing so, because he didn't. Just as I don't give him massive credit for beating the 'lineal champ' Baldomir, because Baldomir was not very good, and not the biggest challenge out there. Are most of his opponents technically inferior to him? Yes. But that doesn't mean other fighters, also less technically skilled, wouldn't have forced him to really prove his mettle. Again, it's more of a case of me giving him a credit for what he's actually done, which isn't all that much compared to a lot of the great fighters we've seen over the years, rather than giving him a freepass because of promotional issues. It's a shame he's had problems with Top Rank, who handled some of the fighters who were his main rivals, and, I guess it's also a shame he came around in a fairly weak era. It doesn't mean that I will give him the same credit as someone who did partake in the kind of fights that define a great fighter, it's just bad luck I guess, but not something that I give allowances for (just my opinion)

In short, what I'm saying is; I'm not discrediting Floyd. I'm merely giving the credit to other fighters, because they deserve it more. Do I think Floyd is a great fighter? Yes. Just not as great as many others that don't receive the hyperbolic praise he often does.

Thanks for the posts lads, good debating with people that are above the usual 'Floyd is great and if you don't think he's the best you're a biased hater'.

 

Mayweather is a better fighter and a better record with absolutely no doubt compared to Joe Calzaghe. He has the same over Conteh too.

 

He's definitely a 'better fighter' than Conteh? Is he more skilled than Napoles as well?

 

Great post Flea. Unfortunately not everyone is steeped in the history of the sport. While PBF' s defence is top class unlike others I have never called him or actually heard him call himself the greatest defensive fighter ever(I have heard him say he is the best ever). Such claims actually do him some disservice as he is actually a very good attacking fighter akin to a sharp shooter. Is he very good defensively sure he is. Ishe the best ever defensively, no way so I agree with you. I can at least point to the likes of Pernell Whittaker and Marlon Starling amongst others. For me PBF has a high level of proficiency at a lot of things but he best attribute is his timing, ability to adjust and ring smarts or ring generalship.
An intersting thing is that while he has great punch economy as he went up to Welterweight he tends to punch less in combinations generally against the bigger guys the notable exception being the Hatton fight which brought out the best in him.

A problem I see is that a lot of fighters today seem to lack the old school skills which begs questions about some of today's trainers. Take the likes of Berto and Ortiz who have become champions yet they don't really seem to have learned their trade.

A question I have been meaning to ask you how do you view someone like Oscar De La Hoya true standing? I have some views which may be viewed as overly critical and I would really want to run it by you to see whether I am being harsh and unfair to him. It is my contention that he was a very good and gifted fighter who was very well managed by Top Rank in the early part of his career but that he lacked true greatness and that his popularity hides his true standing. In my view against a certain higher level of opposition his performance levels dropped e.g. Whittaker, Oba Carr, Vargas, Quartey, Sturm,as well as the fights he lost (Mosley twice, Trinidad, Hopkins, Mayweather, Pacman) whereas at a some lower levels he was simply devastating e.g.Mayorga and others. I am I being fair or to harsh.

 

Unlike some posters, you seem to understand exactly where I'm coming from Olu. Good post.

First and foremost: your reference to Starling, as anyone on here who knows me will attest to, has pleased me immensely!!!!!!!!! Very underrated fighter, and a fantastic defensive fighter who used it to get inside and get his shots off. I think a lot of people nowadays seem to think staying well out of punching range is 'good defence', when in fact it's overtly negative (stems from the state of the amateur game post-Seoul IMO)

On De La Hoya; I pretty much agree with everything you have said. His opposition was very good, but he showed some worrying attributes (stamina, primarily one-handed, and the aforementioned overly negative tactics SOMETIMES down the stretch, as well as getting too much kudos for weight-climbing) and, IMO, whilst he was definitely one of the best fighters from the last 20 years, hasn't got anything which makes you really go WOW. The 'win' over Trinidad was very impressive, his tactics in the last few rounds were not.

Any more to add on Oscar, Olu? I'm not disputing he's 'great'....again though, not as 'great' as many others.

I think nowadays, due to his later career, and especially the shellacking he took against Pac (no different to say, Ortiz Vs Buchanan IMO) he gets a bit of unfair criticism.

Maybe we should try and find the middle ground with 'The Golden Boy'

 

Floyd is the most skilled fighter of my generation defensively and technically. The op was a question who has best record between PBF and Calzaghe. PBF obviously because he is a 5 weight champ.

I mentioned Conteh because he was in the last post before mine. Conteh was a brilliant fighter no doubt, but never really got out of boxing what he should of and hasn't the deepest of records either. I have prime-Conteh beating prime-Calzaghe in a fantasy fight btw.

This thread has taken a tangent. To be honest Kyle I haven't got a clue about Napoles cos it was before my time and I haven't studied his career.

Remember seeing him cut to ribbons against Stracey in a sky highlight years ago but that's about it.

 

Magic Man Marlon Starling. Who will ever forget his dissection of Honeyghan and Mark Breland and lets not forget he actually defeated the the young Simon Brown. That Excellent Peekaboo defence. Remember his fights with Don Curry when Curry was outstanding. Personally I wish Starling was training boxers today imagine what he could potentially teach.


ODLH for me the problem is the difference between being very good and great. I think his good looks, cross over appeal etc muddies the waters. I can't quite place him in the same company as the Sugar Rays, Azumah, Hagler, Monzon, Ali, Duran etc. Why did he not fight an aging Azumah Nelson at Junior Lightweight and opt for Jimmy Bredahl? I guess it was not a risk Bob Arum was prepared to take. I never think WOW when it comes to ODLH.

I think we can excuse his performance against Pacman as he really did not show up so one sided it was.

Felix Tito Trinidad now that was a fighter I respect as he gave everything in the ring. Sometime I would wish his father Don Felix Trinidad Senior would whack him and floor him in the changing room before the fights as when he got toppled by his opponents it seemed to wake him and they were then in big trouble.

Amongst the best of the British I think Buchanan and Conteh were so gifted they really were. Conteh had he been more dedicated the sky would have been the limit. Buchanan unfortunately ran into Duran and the punch in the family jewels.

 

Oscar looked sensational all the way to 140, but I feel his bestbody of work was at 147-154. And, if you give him the Trinidad win (I felt it was a clear 115-113 win) then it looks even more sensational.

Fight with Sturm showed his physical limits. But definitely a 'great' IMO, just not what people thought he could've done at the time (then again, he was massively hyped!)

As for Starling, I felt he definitely deserved a draw in the 1st Curry fight, and did enough to win the 2nd Breland fight. 1st fight with Breland, taken into context, was a massive upset at the time, and showed that even without bone crushing power, if you want it enough, you can get your man out of there. He tooled Honeyghan, then the no.1 and linear 147lb champion (although Starling had the style to beat him) when he was coming off a brutal K.O to Molinares.....I guess it's because he didn't remember it ;-)

Starling, IMO, and I've said it a few times before, might just be the most underrated fighter of the last 30 years. After Curry, he was the no.1 Welter in the World, and proved it by fighting everyone :good He also gave a very, VERY good account of himself in his loss to Nunn, finishing the much stronger man, although I felt Nunn won the fight 116-112. Nunn was probably already winding down by that stage, but still a herculean effort by Starling against, like Breland, a fighter who was touted as a real special talent at the time.

Starling was brilliant!

 

Starling was brillant and in Honeyghan he beat the number 1 at the time and linear champion at his peak. His record shows he fought everyone.

I personally gave the fight to Trinidad though it seems to split people. I think there was a reason he got on his bike which was probably because he feared Tito's power. The fight was a bit unsatisfactory as a spectacle. I think some hack was quoted as saying " one guy was scared, the other guy was glad he was".

 

Mayweather hurt his hand, lost to Castillo was handed the win by the judges(Mayweather won every round against ODLH though).

Calzaghe never lost. His record is true.

 

Yes, pre-Calzaghe Kessler>>>Hopkins

The argument can be made that Hopkins+Cortez>>>pre-Calzaghe Kessler however.

Kessler has looked terrible ever since and in his prime Froch would have been defeated in a very one-sided fight.

 

Kalambay does have a much better jab, plus he can double/treble it - have you noticed Floyd can't do that and his jab seems awkward. Kalambay has much better lateral movement and more fluid combinations. He is slower, I don't think he has the same reactions either. From what I can tell he isn't as varied. Floyd has better balance, better at setting traps and countering. Floyd has better lead rights and lead hooks because of his speed. Floyd probably works the body better. For whatever reason Floyd seems to be better break his opponents down, whether mentally or physically. You could claim it's competition but only Castillo has still been in the running with Floyd coming into the championship rounds.

No Floyd hasn't fought anyone as good as McCallum but I think we'd agree if McCallum was the same size as him then Floyd he'd beat him to the punch pretty easily

How do you see Kalambay-Toney going Flea? Think I may give Sumbu the edge

Agreed with this, he's probably duking it out with Kalambay for that spot, the 80s was 1 hell of an era

 

well, Floyd did fight at 154 PP ;-) And I'd fancy The Body Snatcher heavily against that Floyd!

I think Floyd doesn't like to risk getting caught in between jabs, so it's either one jab, move re-set, or jab followed by a sharp shot off of it, depending on how his opponent reacts to his sharp jab first off. His jab can dissuade opponents, I think he applies it well. But he has little else off the left other than his left hook, Sumbu could tuck it in all over the shop. Not quite as accurate as Floyd no, but more active, and, despite not being as quick in terms of reflexes, his defensive game was solid from top-to-bottom, and certainly comparable given the opposition he proved it against. I would agree with you that it's not entirely competition based with Floyd, anyone denying that 135lb Castillo wasn't the best Lightweight of the time would be a mad man, but IIRC (ain't watched it in a while but will do so if I'm wrong) wasn't their 2nd fight one of Floyds low on punches high on movement performances? I never really like him when he's in that mode to be perfectly honest.

Kalambay, with his movement, would be big, big hassle for Toney IMO, who, as you know, has always looked at his best when his opponents come into his domain. Kalambay wins it on his jab and intelligent movement, and he could take a whack if James pulls off his sharp overhand right. If Floyd is better aat setting traps, Sumbu jut went with the flow, and Toney shouldn't have too much to hassle him with stylistically. Unless he pulls off an anomaly punch whilst Sumbu has yet to warm up :tong

Starling and Kalambay are both highly underrated master technicians. Yes, they probably are two of the most underrated from that era, at least nowadays.