Objectively, the two reasons why Pac must rank higher than Floyd in ATG terms...

C`mon Popkin`s ... play the game fair, you either use the official cards on both fights or your own judgement on both fights, not whichever one suits best to boost Pac`s record.

Ps. I must warn you before you reply... I do remember clearly you stating that you had JMM beating Pac in the 08 rematch

 

But yet your opinion will count when you decide you want to knock Mayweather's ATG status.

Beside you are taking it to a higher level then I am trying to take it to. I'm not saying that since Mayweather could probably defeat those guys that his ATG status should be higher. I am saying that there is no need to throw it in Mayweather's face when talking about Pac defeating those ATGs and Mayweather not as there wasn't any real possibility of Mayweather fighting those guys and if they did fight Mayweather would have some ATGs on his resume. Plus there was no prime ATG/HOFs in Mayweather's divisions while Pac had 3 of them giving him more availability. The only guy close was Mosley at 135 and he turned down the fight to move up to WW to fight Hoya for more money.

With no ATGs available Mayweather did a good job of moving up in weight and at least challenging bigger guys then him. He has taken the belts of 3 guys with 14-18pds on him on fight night.

 

Two reasons are fair enough although I don't fully agree with the second's reasoning.. for the reason right below me..

Notice how many replies you got to this post? Easier to attack the nonsense posts and high five each other than try to debate with someone posting real ****.

:deal

 

Yay for double standards!!! It's the ESB way! Do people not remember there's post history here?

 

I'm not necessarily averse to rating Pac higher than Floyd in principle, but not given the criteria listed.

Here's why...

1. The titles/division argument is meaningless, given the proliferation of title belts in existence today.

Realistically, you can toss Pac's jr. middleweight and lightweight claims right out the window, since he was pretty much gifted a title at 154, and faced the weakest of the 135lb titleholders in David Diaz (when there were other fighters who had much better claim to lineal recognition at the weight). In contrast, Pac never won a major world title at featherweight or jr. welterweight but we can safely say that he was champion at both those weights due to victories over Barrera and Hatton.

If one defines a division's champion as someone who reigns over a division where clear lineage has been established, then Pac's champinship history looks something like this.

Championships won:

* Flyweight (Sakasul was lineal titleholder)
* Featherweight (Barerra was considered world champ after fights with Hamed, Tapia and Morales)
* Jr. Lightweight (victory over JMM gives him RING and WBC recognition)
* Jr. Welterweight (victory over Hatton, who had defeated the person who unified, KT)

Divisions where Pac won titles, but has not established clear lineage

* Welterweight (Pac holds WBO title, but has yet to unify or to consolidate lineage. You could make a case that Cotto should have been dual titleholder...but the only issue with that was the fact that Mosley was still WBC titleholder at that point, following his victory over Cotto conquerer Margarito)
* Jr. Featherweight (Beat a solid titleholder in Ledwaba, but didn't get the chance to fight the guy who had established lineage, Paulie Ayala- and drew when he attempted to unify against Agapito Sanchez)

Just for the sake of comparison...

Championships won by Mayweather...

* Jr. Lightweight (reigning titleholder Corrales stripped of belt before facing Mayweather but had yet to lose it in the ring so their fight was a de facto unification match-up)
* Lightweight (JLC was considered the best titleholder at the weight when PBF fought him. Mayweather eventually earned RING recognition at the weight)
* Welterweight (Like it or not, Baldomir was lineal champ after beating Judah, so Mayweather became lineal champ following the victory)

Division where Mayweather won title, but didn't establish lineage:

* Jr. Middleweight (DLH still had something left in him by defeating Mayorga to regain a piece of the 154 crown, but no clear champion had been established following Wright's departure.)

Division where Mayweather's "world title" isn't to be taken that seriously:

* Jr. Welterweight (KT and then Hatton were lineal champions at that point. Gatti was a good contender at 140lbs, but not the champ)

******************

2. I disagree with Popkins "objective assessment" about borderine ATG's/ future HOF's fought by each man. I think his argument is based on subjective reasoning, to be honest.

By my reasoning, you could make a case that DLH, while past it, still had something left in the tank when he fought Mayweather and deserves mention. So does Marquez, despite the jump in weight to face PBF, as he was on good form going into this fight. I'm willing to add Morales to the list of ATG's that Pac fought, but add that Mayweather's record tends to feature more second-tier guys that might eventually make their way into the HOF e.g. Corrales and Castillo.

To summarize, this isn't as clear cut as Popkins makes it sound. Cases can be made for both guys...But either way, the reasoning, as stated before, tends to be based on subjective rather than objective criteria.

 

Because of Manny's resume I'd have him ahead of Floyd in the ATG list but the difference between them is not very wide. I do not see any of the fighters beaten by Manny as clear winners against Floyd. MAB, El Terrible & JMM are all ATG's but Floyd was absolute dynamite at 130. One of the best combinations of top class attack & defense in boxing history. I fancy him closely beating the 3 mexican legends.
The second reason you've has been much talked about before. Both fought at 106 pounds at age 16. It is just that Manny turned pro at a much younger age than Floyd, which gave him the chance to compete in 8 weight classes. Had Manny turned pro at the standard age of 19-20 he would not be a 8 division champ.

 

Dickheads like you are why Pac fans are ranked as the worst in the entire sport, anyone says anything that does not = sucking Pac`s bellend & you hit out with childish posts that tell me you know nothing about this sport.

 

Good post, only flaw (not really a flaw just more detail to it)in it is that Mayweather signed up to fight Gatti before Hatton defeated Tzyu to establish himself as world class and get lineal. Gatti was also rated above Hatton in Ring Magazine before Hatton defeated Tzyu. Hatton didn't want to face Mayweather after he defeated Tzyu and Mayweather defeated Gatti. Avoiding giving Mayweather a chance to get lineage and Tzyu was with showtime hurting the chances of that fight before Hatton.

 

How could Floyd have sign to fight Gatti before Hatton defeated Tszyu when Floyd fought TWO eliminatoes just to get to Gatti? :huh

 

:deal I really wish you posted more Drew.

 

True...But if you apply the criteria I used for Pac's titles/championships, it's gotta be applied to Mayweather as well. Gatti was highly ranked at 140lbs, he was in good form leading up to this fight, and the way Mayweather dismantled him does make it one of his better wins...But, he wasn't lineal at the weight. So Mayweather can't be considered 140lb champ. Would have been nice to see a Tszyu-Mayweather fight come off, but because they were on separate networks, it wasn't likely to happen.

 

Again I was targeting people that were acting like it wasn't close since Pac has ATGs on his resume.

Mayweather defeated lineal champion Carlos Baldomir to become the lineal champ at WW that is the fact. Yet that win and lineal title is downgraded do to the hypothetical and opinion that Margarito was better then Baldomir. Mayweather won the JMW title vs ring magazine #3 JMW. Yet that win is downgraded due to hypothetical and opinions that Cotto and Margarito were tougher fights due to them being younger.

More facts Mayweather is undefeated but that is downgraded by hypothetical and opinions about Mayweather's comp. Mayweather has fought and won 19 championship fights with belts on the line. Mayweather has taken the belts of 8 champions and has defend his belts successfully 11 times.

Its okay to downgrade Mayweather's achievements based on hypotheticals and opinions but yet if you use the same hypotheticals and opinions in the opposite manner then there is a problem.

So I guess I shouldn't be seeing you use hypotheticals and opinions to downgrade Mayweather achievement in the future then. :good

 

Wow, nice response. Most agree that Pac as of now is ranked higher due to who he was able to/did face, but it's not this huge gap like ESB tries to make it. It's also not 100% in the fighters hands, as it was said before, a lot also depends on who's available and will fight you, and when.

 

Hatton defeated Tzyu 21 days before Mayweather defeated Gatti. I am pretty sure the fight was signed months prior to that.