In defence of Jess Willard and Primo Carnera

Mendoza

Your comment on Marciano's age at retirement brings the very interesting question of old age fighting.

How many fighters were able to win a heavyweight championship match when past 35 between John L Sullivan in 1882 and Muhammad Ali in 1980? And how many did they win?

1--Jack Johnson (defeated Battling Johnson in 1913. Frank Moran in 1914 at 35 & 36)

2--Jersey Joe Walcott (defeat Ezzard Charles in 1951 & 1952 at 37 & 38)

3--Muhammad Ali (defeated Earnie Shavers in 1977. Leon Spinks in 1978 at 35 & 36)

Certainly Battling Johnson & probably Moran were not among the top five contenders for Jack Johnson's title. Shavers was up there, but Spinks probably wasn't. Could Jack Johnson have defeated Langford, McVea, Jeannette, Wills, Gunboat Smith? Could Ali have defeated Holmes? Only Walcott was clearly beating the best available opposition and only Walcott won a fight at 37 or above.

Compare that to the last decade.

Lewis--defeats Tua at 35, Rahman at 36, Tyson at 37, Vitali at 38.

Vitali--has 8 victories and counting since his comeback began at 37.

Wlad--recently defeated David Haye at 35 and is still going strong.

Why? Why are there 13 post 35 year old victories in the last decade or so when there were only 6 in the hundred years from 1880 to 1980.

My thesis---The bottom has fallen out of the heavyweight division and so the men at the top simply have no competition. Why did this happen? My answer would be the disappearance of top American black heavyweights. In the 1980's and 1990's, you had Larry Holmes, Mike Tyson, Evander Holyfield, and Riddick Bowe. Who do you have now? Eddie Chambers and Tony Thompson!

A similar situation happened in the 1960's with the disappearance of good American white heavyweights. In the last 50 years, only Jerry Quarry, Duane Bobick, Gerry Cooney, and Tommy Morrison have amounted to much, and how much did they amount to compared to Sullivan, Jeffries, Dempsey, Tunney, Sharkey, Baer, or Marciano? Hell, how much did they amount to compared to Bob Pastor or Rex Layne?

I will be interested if this stirs up a hornet's nest. Hope so.

 

Mendoza--the reason I didn't use Bowe is I consider his record rather misleading as he got victories over Golata on DQ's in which he suffered such beatings that he was finished as a serious fighter. Therefore he would twist any stat analysis.

TheGreatA--thanks for the film of Carnera. He is snapping off his punches much better on this film than in any other I have seem him. It makes one wonder if his opponents were usually simply too short for him to use that right cross which looks pretty good on this film.

 

Yeah, that was a nice right hand actually. Followed by one of the most bizarre attempts at a left hook i've ever seen. He looked mobile and sharp there.

 

no

 

I wouldn't even expect Dempsey to beat Helenius, let alone a Klitschko. :yep

 

Dempsey would turn mutant Kelly Pavlik into a cheeseburger.

 

God love you for
being even handed and objective :good

 

Actually,I would.

 

Any thoughts on Carnera's KO?

 

Who were these guys, and please don't list 0-11 tomato cans who were truck drivers.....

I think having a combined record of nearly 100 wins and only 5 losses with long term title reins sets them apart from the rest, especially given that most of their opponents were at least within reasonable heavyweight perameters...

"Gifted" may be a stretch. But at least they were fighting men who's size difference was no where near as out of range as the men that WIllard and Carnera were fighting... They have an advantage, no doubt, but they margin is not nearly as great... Bottom line, the Klits don't realy on their size as much as Carnera and Willard did, and have done far better than either of those two ever did...

 

Off the cuff, Jack Trammall, Hein Ten Hoff, Fulton come to mind. Ten hoff, looked particularly good on film.

 

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Mendoza--but it isn't just Lewis & the Klitschkos. Here are the ages of the top 25 heavyweights as listed on boxrec today.

40 or above--4 (Vitali, Holyfield-48, Cedric Boswell, Monte Barett)

35-39--7 (including Wlad)

30-34--9

25-29--4

20-24--1 (Tyson Fury)

An amazing 11 of 25 are 35 or over-almost half. And 4 over 40. And the top men 35 and 40. And a mind-boggling 20 of 25 over 30. As generally an athlete peaks at 27 or 28, this seems a great many geriatric fighters.

Compare with the ages of the yearly Ring Ratings of 1937, which I took at random.

Joe Louis--23

Max Schmeling--32
Tommy Farr--23
Nathan Mann--22
Alberto Lovell--25
Tony Galento--27
Jimmy Adamick--22
Lou Nova--24
Bob Pastor--23
Roscoe Toles--23
Andre Lenglet--24

Other than Schmeling, young men in their physical primes or on the way up. And even Schmeling would be "youngish" today.