Dempsey, Liston, Holyfield, Frazier.

Discussion in 'Classic Boxing Forum' started by lufcrazy, Aug 19, 2011.


Page 22 of 33
  1. lufcrazy

    lufcrazy requiescat in pace Full Member

    79,889
    20,455
    Sep 15, 2009
    I think picking apart some of dempsey's opposition is fair, but firpo aint one of the one's who was undeserving.
     
    lufcrazy, Sep 4, 2011
    lufcrazy, Sep 4, 2011
    #316
  2. choklab

    choklab cocoon of horror Full Member

    27,669
    7,628
    Dec 31, 2009
    1917-1919 Dempsey and wills were both equally worthy of a shot at Willard. Dempsey outshone wills as a contender and wills missed his window. wills was still worth a title defence after that no doubt, but it was not the fashion then to defend against the most worthy contender until the champ had made enough money out of the title. As champ did Corbet,Fitz,jeffries defend against their toughest challenger first? As champ did burns fight Johnson first? As champ did Willard fight wills first? It might sound like an excuse but this was how it was. Just like all the other champions Dempsey eliminated other challengers in money fights first then signed to fight wills but wills was not the man he was in 1917-1919 and was drawing with bill Tate. It never happened. It should have but it never did. One thing for sure wills was not any better than firpo by the time it could have happened anyway. wills-firpo was a stinker.
     
    choklab, Sep 5, 2011
    choklab, Sep 5, 2011
    #317
  3. janitor

    janitor VIP Member Full Member

    71,200
    26,485
    Feb 15, 2006
     
    janitor, Sep 5, 2011
    janitor, Sep 5, 2011
    #318
  4. janitor

    janitor VIP Member Full Member

    71,200
    26,485
    Feb 15, 2006
    Agreed.

    I can understand some of the criticism he gets for fighting Carpintier, but criticising him for fighting Firpo is entirely unwaranted.
     
    janitor, Sep 5, 2011
    janitor, Sep 5, 2011
    #319
  5. lufcrazy

    lufcrazy requiescat in pace Full Member

    79,889
    20,455
    Sep 15, 2009
    I'm of the opinion that had the signed fight with wills gone through people wouldn't question any of jack's opponents.

    I think if you accept he didn't clear out his division and hence put a ceiling on his legacy, if you accept the fight with wills didn't come off, then by removing wills from the equation there isn't much wrong with those he fought against imo.

    I know some think he ducked greb but I don't buy into that.
     
    lufcrazy, Sep 5, 2011
    lufcrazy, Sep 5, 2011
    #320
  6. burt bienstock

    burt bienstock Obsessed with Boxing Full Member

    18,285
    388
    Jan 22, 2010
    It is waranted J,when you HATE Dempsey. He was a legitimate contender,and MORE important he was with the name "wild bull of the Pampas",a great drawing card. And that is where the money is...:good
     
    burt bienstock, Sep 5, 2011
    burt bienstock, Sep 5, 2011
    #321
  7. lufcrazy

    lufcrazy requiescat in pace Full Member

    79,889
    20,455
    Sep 15, 2009
    I wonder if the new dempsey footage has people reevaluating him?
     
    lufcrazy, Sep 6, 2011
    lufcrazy, Sep 6, 2011
    #322
  8. Unforgiven

    Unforgiven VIP Member banned Full Member

    58,748
    21,553
    Nov 24, 2005
    Where's the new Dempsey footage ?



    Anyway ..... I think Dempsey, Holyfield and Frazier are hard to separate. All true all-time greats. All terrific warrior champions.

    Liston is a bit of a problem. His performances against Clay/Ali were utterly pathetic, IMO.
     
    Unforgiven, Oct 3, 2011
    Unforgiven, Oct 3, 2011
    #323
  9. lufcrazy

    lufcrazy requiescat in pace Full Member

    79,889
    20,455
    Sep 15, 2009
    I still have them holyfield-frazier-dempsey-liston in that exact order.
     
    lufcrazy, Oct 3, 2011
    lufcrazy, Oct 3, 2011
    #324
  10. Unforgiven

    Unforgiven VIP Member banned Full Member

    58,748
    21,553
    Nov 24, 2005
    Where can I find new Dempsey footage, lufcrazy ?
     
    Unforgiven, Oct 3, 2011
    Unforgiven, Oct 3, 2011
    #325
  11. SenorRamirez

    SenorRamirez Active Member Full Member

    596
    1
    Jul 14, 2011
    here is that clay fight
    look again pleas
    http://www.eastsideboxing.com/forum/showthread.php?t=347686
    sonny fights good again clay
    with better training and without his shoulder injury he have a chance vs clay ;)
     
    SenorRamirez, Oct 3, 2011
    SenorRamirez, Oct 3, 2011
    #326
  12. lufcrazy

    lufcrazy requiescat in pace Full Member

    79,889
    20,455
    Sep 15, 2009
    It was a thread on here a while back. Sparring footage in preparation for his fight with carpentier.
     
    lufcrazy, Oct 3, 2011
    lufcrazy, Oct 3, 2011
    #327
  13. Unforgiven

    Unforgiven VIP Member banned Full Member

    58,748
    21,553
    Nov 24, 2005
    Ah, yes. I think I've seen that. :good
     
    Unforgiven, Oct 3, 2011
    Unforgiven, Oct 3, 2011
    #328
  14. Unforgiven

    Unforgiven VIP Member banned Full Member

    58,748
    21,553
    Nov 24, 2005

    Holyfield, Dempsey and Frazier in their primes surely wouldn't have quit like that though.
     
    Unforgiven, Oct 3, 2011
    Unforgiven, Oct 3, 2011
    #329
  15. lufcrazy

    lufcrazy requiescat in pace Full Member

    79,889
    20,455
    Sep 15, 2009
    From 60-64 liston was a monster but stylistically I believe ali had his number.

    Nothing wrong with that because frazier has his number drawn by george.

    Prime holyfield and prime dempsey never proved inferior to any opponent imo.

    However frazier was an all conquering champ whereas jack wasn't.

    H2h I put liston top but based on his career as a whole I put him last.
     
    lufcrazy, Oct 3, 2011
    lufcrazy, Oct 3, 2011
    #330
Page 22 of 33