I rate the Benvenuti win higher than the Valdez win (1st one anyway) as, although Benvenuti was a horror to watch, he clearly had more clout going into the fight (undisputed champion for example) and, whilst ugly, was no round sleeper than Valdez. Benvenuti>Valdez as a middleweight scalp. Is that controversial?
It depends what you think of Benvenuti's 2 losses, a journeyman stopped him 6months prior and Tiger beat him 6 months before that, no shame in losing to Tiger ordinarily but this is the past it Tiger who was dying of cancer. Some say Benvenuti wasn't up for them as they weren't title bouts. Then ofcourse, in the ring Valdes gave him the harder fight 1 thing you have to give Monzon is that he fought a variety of styles and had success against them all
With a 6 scale I'd go something like: Great - Ezzard Charles Very Good - Roberto Duran Good - Erik Morales Decent - Bernard Hopkins Weak - Joe Calzaghe Feeble - Ricardo Lopez In a 10 scale I'd go: Ridiculous - Harry Greb Great - Ray Robinson Excellent - Henry Armstrong Very Good - Roberto Duran Damn Good - Carlos Monzon Good - Erik Morales Decent - Bernard Hopkins Weak - Joe Calzaghe Feeble - Ricardo Lopez LMFAO - Brian Nielsen
Fair enough, but WTF happened against the 'journeyman'? I've never been sold on Ninos chin. Not since I saw Griffith smack him down like Julian Jackson ;-)
This is probably better than mine, because Calzaghe's resume is closer to 'Weak' than to 'Decent', but I'm not sure that there is enough of a difference between the quality of the resumes of Morales and Hopkins to merit them being on separate levels. Other than the Morales-Hopkins issue, this is solid. Just what I was looking for. Cheers man. :happy Indeed.
Cheers :good Yeah perhaps you're right. That's just my anti-Hopkinism coming out. Perhaps someone like Kostya Tszyu might be a better exemplar of a 'decent' resume. :yep
Not bad, but as others have pointed out he never really fought at a weight/size deficit(and yes, that matters) and against the best fighters he took on he was never experiencing an age or freshness deficit either. Then you have some of the subpar results in Argentina... I'm inclined to say that as much as i love his style I think he's gotten a bit oversold. I'd put a least Greb, Robinson, Hagler over him.... And maybe depending on how I feel guys like Burley and Fitzsimmons could get the nod as well.
I think Monzon's record upon leaving Argentina was 67-3-9, and didn't he avenge all of his early career losses, maybe even by stoppage? (would need to check and verify this) I don't think that's a record to turn your nose up at really, do you?
I think it's a caveat certainly worth mentioning. And I recall someone(maybe Klompton) talking about the legitimacy of a few of those draws as well. Think about how much mess a guy like Chavez gets for parking the asses of that kind of regional opposition. And that was while he was winning too. Comparatively, does Monzon enjoy similar scrutiny? Not really. Maybe because his world level performances are mostly quite dominant. I certainly think he should not be considered the best MW h2h or otherwise though, either way.
I don't think early losses/draws count too much against an opponent, that's part of the learning curve, Briscoe said Monzon got better as champ. I'd disagree on his level of opposition as a champion though I'd rate it below Hagler's, mainly due to primeness of the opposition
Valdes was definitely Monzon's best wins for me, especially seeing as though Monzon was near the end and Valdes around his prime. Valdes was an excellent fighter too, and in my opinion as good as, say, Buchanan and De Jesus (I'm using Duran as I voted for 'very good'. Although Roberto fought greater fighters in the 1980s I feel Monzon's middleweight reign was much stronger than the lightweight division in the 1970s, which was one of boxing's weakest divisions throughout the decade, save a few top-notch fighters). The delay in Valdes bout too was never in Carlos's favour, as their original date of June/July 74 would seen him much closer to his prime and may have ended in a stoppage, rather than a decision win
All 3 of his losses were in his first 20 fights, and like Popkins said, all avenged. I guess the draws are a bit bothersome, but that really only goes to show how much he improved. By all accounts he was probably a bit lucky to get the draw in the first Briscoe fight, but by the time of his reign he was able to really just dominate Briscoe. Agreed with PowerPuncher on the early losses/draw thing. I don't think they should take away any of the shine of guys like Monzon or Armstrong who clearly got better as their careers progressed. I think he's flat out the best H2H fighter ever at the weight, at least that we have film of. Robinson on his best night could take him, but that's not a given, and anything less and he's falling short. His reign seems a clear bit better than Hagler's too, in my mind.
I also throw my weight behind the lack of importance of early career losses/draws. A fighter learning his trade should never detract from how great he becomes in his prime. Some fighters started their pro careers with top-level trainers and promoters after a long period of amateur nourishment culminating in Olympic/world successes - but some had to learn their trade in the pro ranks, and this should never be held against them, in terms of legacy.