Why are many ATG lists including boxers who I know many of you have never seen live?

Discussion in 'World Boxing Forum' started by jasper222, Oct 6, 2011.


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  1. jasper222

    jasper222 Member Full Member

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    For instance (this isn't mine):

    SRR
    Ali
    Louis
    Pep
    Greb
    Armstrong
    Duran
    Langford
    Benny Leonard
    Dempsey
    SRL
    Moore
    Monzon
    Charles
    Fitzsimmons

    Don't tell me you've seen these fighters (in bold) live. What right do you have to put them on your ATG lists if you've never seen them fight? Hearsay? I'd rather believe people who'd put say, De La Hoya in their ATG lists. They're more believable since he has records, tangible ones at that, and people in this era know him. :-(

    But then again, why is it that many posters lambast others for putting people like Oscar in their ATG lists? Their lists have more credibility since these posters in this era have actually seen these guys fight.

    This is terrible. I thought this site had credible posters but I guess I was wrong. :roll:
     
    jasper222, Oct 6, 2011
    jasper222, Oct 6, 2011
    #1
  2. SouthpawJab

    SouthpawJab On his way up!! 4-0!! Full Member

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    I understand giving respect to fighters of the past, but some of these are ridiculous.
     
    SouthpawJab, Oct 6, 2011
    SouthpawJab, Oct 6, 2011
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  3. bobotnaman

    bobotnaman ★★★★☆ Full Member

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    there's a thing called youtube and replay. and old articles. although i kinda agree with you that's why i don't have a top 10 list because i haven't seen (or followed) 70s and older era fighters. i've only seen them on tv (greatest fights).
     
    bobotnaman, Oct 6, 2011
    bobotnaman, Oct 6, 2011
    #3
  4. SportsLeader

    SportsLeader Chilling Full Member

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    ****ing hell.
     
    SportsLeader, Oct 6, 2011
    SportsLeader, Oct 6, 2011
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  5. jasper222

    jasper222 Member Full Member

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    I know hence I didn't count Ali and the others.
     
    jasper222, Oct 6, 2011
    jasper222, Oct 6, 2011
    #5
  6. KO-KING

    KO-KING Boxing Junkie Full Member

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    old footage, but some fighters don't even have those
     
    KO-KING, Oct 6, 2011
    KO-KING, Oct 6, 2011
    #6
  7. cesare-borgia

    cesare-borgia Übermensch in fieri Full Member

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    he has a point though, how can someone say greb would beat roy jones when there is no footage at all.
     
    cesare-borgia, Oct 6, 2011
    cesare-borgia, Oct 6, 2011
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  8. Davew430

    Davew430 Well-Known Member Full Member

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    There's barely any footage on the likes of Greb and Langford, but all you have to do is look at their records, what they've achieved and under the circumstance's they achieved it all under, then you realise why they're ATG's
     
    Davew430, Oct 6, 2011
    Davew430, Oct 6, 2011
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  9. Davew430

    Davew430 Well-Known Member Full Member

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    No, that's H2H fantasy match up's.

    Nobody is saying Greb would beat Roy Jones...

    When analyising an ATG fighter, me personally take 3 thing's into account...

    Skillset
    Resume
    Achievements (multiple weights, etc)

    Now look at Greb's record and achievements and tell me that doesn't not only outweigh, but completley smash what Jones has done?
     
    Davew430, Oct 6, 2011
    Davew430, Oct 6, 2011
    #9
  10. the cobra

    the cobra Awesomeizationism! Full Member

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    Oh, General Forum.
     
    the cobra, Oct 6, 2011
    the cobra, Oct 6, 2011
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  11. jasper222

    jasper222 Member Full Member

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    Then again, haven't you realized it? Promoters in the past are similar to promoters in the present, and writers/authors in the past are similar to now. What makes you think they haven't put a personal touch of their own, aka an exaggeration?

    I mean, I've seen some Armstrong and Dempsey on the net. I really think even Hatton could beat them. Sure their accomplishments were great, but it was great FOR THEIR TIME. Forgive me for saying this, but Dempsey's style is food for fighters like Nonito Donaire or Floyd.
     
    jasper222, Oct 6, 2011
    jasper222, Oct 6, 2011
    #11
  12. Davew430

    Davew430 Well-Known Member Full Member

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    But they fought for 15 rounds, maybe more in outdoor stadiums in 100degree + heat.

    They fought every 2 weeks, also beat other great fighter's of their generation.
     
    Davew430, Oct 6, 2011
    Davew430, Oct 6, 2011
    #12
  13. Bogotazo

    Bogotazo Amateur Full Member

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    Most people honest enough in their efforts to make a comprehensive ATG list take the time to use whatever resources available to contextualize the era and the level of competition faced by these fighters. Footage helps, and combined with personal accounts and journalistic sources, we get some idea. Some accomplishments speak for themselves regardless (Greb's for example) and allow these fighters to shine despite us never having seen them. It's problematic, but it's all subjective to a large extent anyways.
     
    Bogotazo, Oct 6, 2011
    Bogotazo, Oct 6, 2011
    #13
  14. jasper222

    jasper222 Member Full Member

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    I know boxing in the past was more physically and mentally taxing than today's boxing. However, that doesn't take away from the fact that some modern boxers can match or even surpass those fighters even in very different conditions.

    If that's the case, then why isn't Sullivan on the ATG lists? He was the first heavyweight champ of the world after all, and he fought bare-knuckle.

    See how it stacks up? I know where you come from though. It's just that some people are hypocrites for putting people they've never seen in their ATG lists and calling others out for putting fighters they've seen in their lists.
     
    jasper222, Oct 6, 2011
    jasper222, Oct 6, 2011
    #14
  15. Davew430

    Davew430 Well-Known Member Full Member

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    That's pretty much bang on the button.

    I understand your point of view Jasper, but their accomplishment's speak for themselves in most cases, you don't need to see footage.

    If we we're doing fantasy head 2 head matches, then it'd be difficult to argue for the fighter who's footage we have not seen, but when debating their ATG standing, there's more than enough sources/accounts/etc to rank them
     
    Davew430, Oct 6, 2011
    Davew430, Oct 6, 2011
    #15
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