Did Jack Johnson Deserve A Title Shot From 1902-1904?

Discussion in 'Classic Boxing Forum' started by mcvey, Oct 20, 2011.


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  1. KuRuPT

    KuRuPT Boxing Junkie Full Member

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    Spot on Janitor like always.
     
    KuRuPT, Oct 20, 2011
    KuRuPT, Oct 20, 2011
    #16
  2. janitor

    janitor VIP Member Full Member

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    I honestly think that he would still have fought Munroe and avoided Johnson.

    Sometimes the least plausible explaination is the true one.

    Jeffries was fearless in terms of physical harm to his person, but terified of being the man who lost the title to a black fighter!
     
    janitor, Oct 20, 2011
    janitor, Oct 20, 2011
    #17
  3. McGrain

    McGrain Diamond Dog Staff Member

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    His fight against McVey in LA in '03 was one of the biggest gates in that city's history. Johnson was taking home about $4500 at that time. But Johnson wasn't huge new at this time, and that's a fact. His name when connected with Jeffries tend to be as not good enough. I think this mistaken opinion came about because of his seeming inability to close fights out. Only real boxing people recognised his abilities. You can find dozens of fighters like this in any era, and although very few turn out to be as good as Johnson, they all - all - wait for their title shots because of their style.

    McVey in LA is a good example. He dominated McVey, knocked him down twice, then backed up, and stabbed his way to victory. When he did cut loose, as against Ferguson, he tended not to get the knockout anyway.

    Jeffries was viewed as near-invincible at this time. The result was that nobody could supplant the Johnson performances onto a win over Jeffries. Sometimes contendership, especially pre-rankings, was about more than the W column, rightly or wrongly.

    This is what I say when I mean the issue was never forced.
     
    McGrain, Oct 20, 2011
    McGrain, Oct 20, 2011
    #18
  4. Boilermaker

    Boilermaker Boxing Junkie Full Member

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    I agree with Matt's take.

    But your second sentence wouldnt come true, even if the two mentioned fighters had Jaundice!

    In 1902, when Fitz last fought Jeffries, Johnson was 1 year removed from being KO by Choynski (not as good as the two guys you mentioned) and was still struggling badly with Hank Griffin. Fitz had just KOd the very best figthers around. Then a year later, Fitz went on tour with Jeffries and more than held his own.

    And Nobody played with Corbett at any stage of his career, not even Jeffries, who you acknowledged might have been better than johnson at that stage.
     
    Boilermaker, Oct 20, 2011
    Boilermaker, Oct 20, 2011
    #19
  5. Boilermaker

    Boilermaker Boxing Junkie Full Member

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    Many isolate taht Choynski fight as the point where Johnson's career took off because of the defensive lessons that it taught him at the time. In reality, do you think that this is actually also what hindered his early career?
     
    Boilermaker, Oct 20, 2011
    Boilermaker, Oct 20, 2011
    #20
  6. janitor

    janitor VIP Member Full Member

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    So your argument (perhaps valid), is that Johnson had forced a title shot by every normal standard of the sport, but did not force the issue because he was not given the logical credit for what he did?
     
    janitor, Oct 20, 2011
    janitor, Oct 20, 2011
    #21
  7. McGrain

    McGrain Diamond Dog Staff Member

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    I would hesitate to say that, because you don't know what Johnson would have been had he fought more aggressively.

    I think that to the press of the day he wasn't considered to be in Jeffries class because of his in-ring performances...I think the way you have said it is a more favourable way of saying basically the same thing.
     
    McGrain, Oct 20, 2011
    McGrain, Oct 20, 2011
    #22
  8. lufcrazy

    lufcrazy requiescat in pace Full Member

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    Was this his unbeaten (essentially) run?

    As in did anyone other than jeanette beat him during this time?

    I think by 04 he was clear number 1 contender but the two years before? I'd say he'd be worthy (as much as gunboat) at any of the years mentioned. Always deserving certainly but not always the number 1.
     
    lufcrazy, Oct 20, 2011
    lufcrazy, Oct 20, 2011
    #23
  9. janitor

    janitor VIP Member Full Member

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    Yes, but nobody was going to be seen as being in Jeffries class back then.

    He had been built up to the point that he might as well have had six arms.
     
    janitor, Oct 20, 2011
    janitor, Oct 20, 2011
    #24
  10. McGrain

    McGrain Diamond Dog Staff Member

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    But by about 1907, Johnson was. To the press, Johnson was just another Jeffries victim in waiting, which was not to be always the case. Everybody knew Johnson was in Jeffries class by that time though. Before that he was either held back by his style, or not that good yet. Most likely both.
     
    McGrain, Oct 20, 2011
    McGrain, Oct 20, 2011
    #25
  11. KuRuPT

    KuRuPT Boxing Junkie Full Member

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    Not as good yet.. please expand Mcgrain
     
    KuRuPT, Oct 20, 2011
    KuRuPT, Oct 20, 2011
    #26
  12. janitor

    janitor VIP Member Full Member

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    When has a challenger, however impresive thier resume, been seen as a fair bet against a dominat champion in their prime?
     
    janitor, Oct 20, 2011
    janitor, Oct 20, 2011
    #27
  13. McGrain

    McGrain Diamond Dog Staff Member

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    Of course. Ali was seen as a challenge to the dominant Frazier, Carpantier was seen (somehow) as a threat to the dominant Dempsey, as was Wills, Charles was seen as a threat to Marciano. But that is besides the point.

    If no fighter in the pack has an exceptional claim, which Johnson did not appear to have in 1903, he will remain a part of the pack, and then the champion's people will pick a fighter from that pack, according to taste.
     
    McGrain, Oct 20, 2011
    McGrain, Oct 20, 2011
    #28
  14. McGrain

    McGrain Diamond Dog Staff Member

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    He was not as good at fighting in 1903 as he would be in 1909.
     
    McGrain, Oct 20, 2011
    McGrain, Oct 20, 2011
    #29
  15. PowerPuncher

    PowerPuncher Loyal Member Full Member

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    I think he was clearly the outstanding contender and the reason to why JEffries retired in the first place. Jeffries didn't want to lose and didn't want to have the humiliation of losing his title to a black man. It's safe to say Johnson was seen as a big threat and Jeffries couldn't risk that humiliation of losing his pride and joy to a black man. The racial issue can't be understated, look at American's in the ESB Lounge today who openly say 'I'd never date a woman who'd dated/slept with a black man' and then imagine the pre-civil rights society of 1902-1904. Look to the fact film camera's were stopped in Johnson's stoppage wins and see how Jeffries would rather quit than swing for the fences and get ko'd be the perceived sub-human black man.
     
    PowerPuncher, Oct 20, 2011
    PowerPuncher, Oct 20, 2011
    #30
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