Jack Johnson:Enlighten me

when did they not study defence? back then or now?

 

Back then obviously. Jack Johnson's era was full of offensive minded fighters as this is what fans wanted to see. The fact that Johnson was able to dominate an era while bucking this trend is/was amazing.

 

more offence oriented back then?

Modern theory is touse a high work rate particularly with the jab as he best and most important means of defence.

back then it was hit clean without being hit. less workrate sacrificed for landing harder cleaner blows without getting hit. ie more defence than attack. i dont really think it can be argued otherwise can it?

 

I saw Carpentier vs Papke, and then I contrasted that fight with Demspey and noticed that while the styles were miles apart, Carpentier appeared a master in both from what I could see.

So, wouldn't one be able to make an observation and perhaps hypothosize that Johnson would be able to box, and that it is possible that the only remaining fights of Johnson viewable to the general public consists of mainly a grapping style, and that perhaps like Carpentier, he could adapt to his opponents style, even if more mobile because it is likely given the quantity of fighters participating, that at minimum, SOME had legs and movement?

I don't know, but maybe somebody more resourceful and knowledgable than I could answer this question...???

 

You got the gist of it. Facts are Johnson was Ko'd by a super middle weight, drew with another in his prime for a title fight, ( and was out landed according to papers ) , and floored by middle weight Ketchel in another title match.


Johnson was lucky to escape with a draw in a title fight vs. Jim Battling Johnson, and his bests wins over Langford, McVey and Jeanette mean a lot less when you look at the facts. They are Langford was 156 ( Johnson said in the 130's ) and perhaps 20 years old! McVey was a teenager in two matches and only 20 in the third match. Jeanette was a novice with a losing record, and not much better than .500 when they last meet.

When Johnson meet men in their prime or near prime with ability, experience, and some power, he often lost to the likes of Klondike, Choynski, Griffin, and Hart. As champion he skirted prime versions of Langford, Jeannette and McVey, and was Floored dazed, and saved by his manager in a 4 round exhibition match by GunBoat Smith.


One has to ask himself, how many other ATG's would have the same trouble vs the same fighters on the given dates that Johnson fought them? I can think of none.

 

Mcvey you missed a few things. Johnson called black women of the time two timing ho's. And drew the color line often as champion. He also wanted Schmeling to beat Joe Louis. Not exactly a great role model.

 

After reading Unforgivable Blackness and seeing footage of Johnson in action I'm left with the impression that Johnson was a fighter that never really gave it his all in most of his fights. He seemed as Lazy as he was skilled and liked to fight at his own pace everyone else be dammned. Regardless, I think he was one of the greatest HW's of all time. At his best he could've held his own or better against any HW past or present. I think in many of his fights he was unmotivated after getting the runaround for so long from the powers that be in boxing. Nor do I believe that he was floored by Ketchel in thier fight or that Hart actually beat him. Ketchel's punch appeared to sail over Johnson's head and jack was play acting before he got and destroyed Stanley with one punch. His fight with Hart was reported by many to be a clear cut victory for Johnson but the referee didn't appreciate Johnson's defensive style. He wanted action and thus penalized Johnson for it. His legit loss to Choyinski was when Jack was still relatively green and hadn't filled out to his true heavyweight body. If we're going to criticize Jack for beating a young McVea, maybe we should critciz Choyinski for beating a relatively young Johnson. I wonder how many would regard Johnson's place in the all time HW rankings if Jeffries did what he should've done and gave Jack a shot at his crown when he was in his prime instead of using the color line as a lame excuse for avoiding him. What if Johnson had beat him then?

 

Has he been given his god damn Pardon yet?!

 

For which crime?


Beating his wife to the point where he almost killed her?


Feeling the country on a bond?


Having his night club in Chicago double as a ***** house?

Participating in a fixed fight? ( which according to Johnson he did )

Or the Mann act?

 

:huh

 

Surely a cursory look at his record shows exactly how great he was.

Johnson's era as a prime fighter ran from about 1903 to 1910. I don't think there's a worthwhile heavyweight during that era who jack didn't outbox.

His losses early doors to klondike and choynski don't mean anything because it wasn't the finished article. His losses to jeanette and hart could jus as easily be called victories.

Anything after the jeffries fight means nothing to me because that fight secured his legacy as the man who'd wiped out an era.

He then coasted with his belt taking money fights.

 

shows how much the classic posters know about their ****

 

What would have happened if Dempsey had fought a post prison Johnson?

 

Well lets look at the state of the general forum!

At least it is possible to have an inteligent debate on the classic forum.

The classic forum consistently has higher quality debates, and higher quality posters.

Some people even start threads about modern fighters in the classic forum, and beg the moderaters not to move them.

Can you imagine a classic poster doing that in the general forum?