James Toney & Sven Ottke?

He is much better in terms of overall quality of opposition. Did Ottke ever beat an elite fighter? Did Ottke ever beat a hofer/borderling atg?

Title defences mean nothing unless you are facing top opponents
Quality of oppostion>>>>>>>>>>>Title defenses

Yes he did cheat at hw, but how is that relevant to this thread?

 

Berto couldn't carry the jockstrap of mighty Sven. Deal with it.

 

Indeed. :good

 

It was noted that Abraham also landed something like 40% against Froch, but I thought and noted years ago that Abrahams power was overated and he made no impression on genuine SMWs like Froch and Ward.

 

ATG's are defined by boxing historians, not fans

The criteria for defining a ATG is:
Quality of opposition
Consistency
Intangibles
Accomplishments

Hearns shines in all four departments hence the fact that he is classified as an ATG. There is no shame in a fighter who was prime at ww getting stopped by a mw, who was considered to be a big puncher.. It also doesnt erase his career accomplishments.

Based on consistency Barkley is not a ATG. You have to be consistent, not a hit and miss fighter, like Barkley was.

?????
Nunn is not a ATG. He might make the hof though. Also it doesnt matter if the win is clear or not, as long as its not considered a robbery than there is no problem. If you are fighting the best guys out there of course you are going to have close fights.

Triangle theory?
Hopkins lost to Taylor, who then lost to Abraham
Abraham>>>>Hopkins????

Nunn lost a very debateable decision to a prime Liles. Liles was definately past prime by the time he lost to Mitchell. The fact that Mitchell never beat a decent opponent outside of Liles should tell you that Mitchell wasnt very good. Any fighter can win on a given night. To be considered a top fighter who have to have consistency, which Mitchell never had.

Douglas beat Tyson, but he was still a journeyman
McCall and rahman beat Lewis(hofer), but they are still journeyman

No it is not, unless you can PROVE he was cheating in the lower divisions.

???
Benn lost to Malinga and got a gift
Eubank lost to Schommer and got a gift
Ottke lost the Reid fight and got a gift

 

You tell me some top recognized historians who have put fighters high in their ATG lists who should not be there?

Based on what? Who did he ever beat worth mentioning?

I don't understand the question. What do you mean by the fighters in the division who other fighters want to fight?

And your point is?

"Show me an undefeated fighter and I'll show you a fighter who never fought anyone"
-Nat Fleisher

Triangle theory is nonsense. And the fact that you are so desperate to put down Toney's career that you use it to try and imply that Ottke is somehow better than Nunn tells me that you boxrec way too much.

Of course it is debatable. Nunn shouldn't of got docked a point for the low blow and he was the one who finished strong down the stretch, while Liles kept flopping to the floor. I agree with Pacheco's scorecard which had Nunn winning the fight.

Your prime is determined by the quality of your reflexes. It has nothing to do with whether your winning fights or not. Ali was post prime post exile, Frazier was post prime post Ali I. You have to watch the fighters fights to determine when they slip.

When you never beat an opponent above B level and you need a corrupt judge and corrupt judges to beat a part time pornstar(Reid) you are not very good. The fact that Mitchell had close fights with Ottke speaks for itself.

Cant see how that is relevant here

The fighters make the belt, not the other way around. Just because a guy has a belt doesnt mean he is a top fighter. Look at Ruiz, Rahman, Bruno and Douglas. The smw middleweight division was a barren wasteland post 96 - and the guys you listed above were not very good.

Joppy was a fringe contender. His best wins are Eastman(journeyman) and shot Duran(Journeyman)

Liles was clearly on the slide by the time of the Ballagou fight where he got dropped twice and had a very competitive fight with a journeyman.

Siaca and Giraud never beat anyone woth mentioning either.

I can't believe you typed that

If you want to somehow imply that he was using roids in the lower divisions then the burden of proof is on you. Seeing as how you have none then the point is moot.


Toneys struggles with the scales is what made him struggle in certain fights. It was his lack of workrate which led to him having a competitve fight with Tiberi. He cut 25 lbs of fat in a month and after the fight he was rushed to hospital suffering from severe dehydration

He won the first Williams fight - and got jobbed by the judges. He was also a green contender at the time with only 11 pro fights under his belt. You need to stop boxrecing

It is just as bad as the other decisions I listed above. Toney offered to give Tiberi an immediate rematch but Tiberi refused it. Did Eubank or Benn offer to give immediate rematches after their gift wins? I dont think so.