Jack Johnson vs. Jeffries in 1905

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Thanks for posting the picture but it does look a bit odd, he doesn't seem very well balanced for 1 thing, you'd expect the weight of the men to push his wrist further back to support the weight, he'd need to arch his back and would probably have his front knee further forward and back foot further back. And how did those 2 men get up there in the first place? I'd be inclined to think the pictures were doctored or there was some rope trickery involved

Thanks for the reply, I've seen the picture

The figure I was questioning was the 800lb lift. The deadlift record is with plenty of steroids and on a bar. Lifting a balanced bar is much easier than lifting random objects that are not balanced

Also picking an object and throwing it or lifting it onto a truck is much harder than merely deadlifting a weight off the ground

It's worth noting that today, when you ask a man how much he lifts he usually exaggerates/lies. As a youth I was always surprised how so many people seemed to lift allot less the day I lifted with them because 'they had a bad shoulder/back' that day

 

I'm handling you with polite kid gloves because the last time we went at it you seemed on the verge of a mental breakdown as you're very emotional. I'm just trying to debate the issues. Try to do the same ...

While you give the 168 pound Choynski credit for his legit power, citing claims by Fitz, Corbett, Sharkey and Jeffries you seem to leave out that only one he iced was Johnson. Since they all felt his power and raved about it then it is safe to say that Johnson's chin was inferior to all the above mentioned. So Johnson was iced by a super middleweight past his prime and who had recently been destroyed by a welterweight, could not decisively defeat all time great Marvin Hart in the most important bout of his career while he was in his own physical prime ( a fact you refuse to acknowledge honestly) , floored by a middleweight in a title bout, rocked to his core in a sparring match that had to be stopped to save him from a KO, had to hang on for his life in the final rounds against Jim Johnson in Paris and lost his title on a one shot KO against Willard. Sounds like a chin of steel ...when you add to the fact that he ducked without shame a prime Sam Langford as champion it's safe to say that while Johnson was a man with a complex and interesting story his actual credentials as a fighter are open to huge question. I for one strongly believe he was in the Roy Jones mode. By that I mean he got by on a terrific defensive skill set but his chin was always a bit suspect. I think this is a big part of why he fought so defensively ... he was a very bright man who knew both his strengths and limitations ...

 

Johnson was a MW himself then and hadn't developed his skillset. If Choynski was the biggest puncher of the era as many attest too, then being ko'd by him when you're green and not fully developed physically is hardly shameful. As far as I'm concerned he beat Hart

 

Perhaps we should stop making up facts to suit an argument ... it is highly doubtful he weighed as a middleweight for Choynski as he weighted over 180 for Gardner one year later ... either way he was flattened. Out cold. WE know Corbett weighted less than 180 when he fought him and Fitz likely even lighter ... Jack did not have a strong chin. He made up for it by his excellent defense and low punch out put. He fought risk adverse.

No one is doubting he earned the decision over Hart but what none of you can explain was how the fight was so competitive as all the newspaper accounts show in their round by round coverage. We're talking Marvin Hart ... this was a bout Johnson should have shined to force the title bout w Jeffries and he simply did not.

Can you imagine what a Dempsey, Louis, Marciano or Ali would have done to Marvin Hart ?

 

That is a bit unfair to Marvin Hart though. No one has even seen him fight have they? I could easily ask what Johnson would do to cooper or jones or others. Sometimes good fighters just put up great performances for whatever reason.

 

Well a fair response and let me follow up ... again, I use Adam's work as a reference as he has done the most comprehensive hard research on Hart in existence ... Hart was a tough , aggressive, brave, fairly strong, extremely well conditioned fighter with a decent punch ... he was also extremely limited, fairly easy to hit and not very quick ... if you study JOhnson's career you know for years he lobbied for a chance to fight a top white heavyweight contender. He knew how important such a bout would be for his career and knew how important it was for him to look outstanding. The hope was to force Jeffries to break the color line by having to recognize JOhnson as far and away the outstanding contender for the title ... under such conditions, in the physical prime of his life, Jack Johnson likely deserved the decision but clearly lost the event. He did not dominate. He never hurt Hart, never floored him, never dominated the fight and in fact lost the final rounds ... to me this is a huge mark against the man. Many choose to hide behind the facts but the round by round newspaper coverage exists and it clear memorializes a competitive fight. After the fight it was widely held that neither man belonged in the same ring with Jeffries. Johnson blew his moment to shine. What makes this relative is that Hart was in many ways a poor man's Jeffries, smaller, slower, weaker, less of a puncher, less of a chin, but brave and aggressive ... it is a fair style barometer to gage a Jeffries / JOhnson match up ..

 

i agree with everything you say.

But sometimes things just dont go down right on the night, that is my point.. Ali for example struggled with Bonavena under similar circumstaces. And lost to Norton also, in the same way. I dont think this Johnson struggle should eenigrate his legacy too much.

 

Johnson was not going to stop Hart. Who stopped Hart within 20 rounds, other than Hanrahan on a fluke 1st round KO when he caught Hart cold, and the Gardner broken hand retirement? Other than that, Hart was never stopped within 20 rounds. The guy was really tough, as everyone who followed his career results would attest. War after brutal non-stop war, the guy could slug away and get slugged and keep on going. That is one thing that you have to come away thinking after reading In the Ring With Marvin Hart. He was one of those tough cookies who could take it and dish it, who you probably would have to beat to death before stopping him, unless he retired owing to injury.

 

Adam, do you feel he's have gone 20 with Dempsey, Louis, Marciano, Liston, Foreman, Frazier or Tyson ? Do you feel he would have gone 20 against Jeffries if they fought in Hart's next fight after Johnson ? Also, you read likely as much coverage of this fight as any of us ... do you feel it was a one sided beating and a robbery or was it a robbery but a competitive fight ?

 

I rspect your points but this was not a come backing Ali filled w rust or under prepared for a Norton ... this was a huge fight for JOhnson, highly publicized and one he waited for his whole career .. this was no random moment but a defining one which makes his inability to destroy Hart questionable ...

 

I only know the results of who he did fight, and Hart proved himself to be pretty darn durable. Maybe a puncher stops him, but Johnson was not known as a knockout artist. Like saying Liston or Foreman stops a guy, but maybe Ali does not. Does not mean Ali can't fight, or that he does not stop Liston or Foreman. It's all about matchups. Johnson was more of a defensive boxer than an offensive puncher. Hence, he was not going to stop a Marvin Hart, who was so tough, rugged, and well conditioned, that he was not going to get stopped by anything less than a very big puncher/finisher. So maybe Jeffries would stop Hart, but that still does not mean Johnson does not outpoint Jeff. Doesn't mean he does either. Can't know for sure.

Jeff may have been so strong, well conditioned, and durable himself, that he too would have won a close decision over Johnson, if he did not stop him. On the other hand, Johnson might have defended everything Jeff threw and outpointed him with his speedy shots. We'll never know. I agree that everyone said Jeff did everything better than Hart, which is why they thought that Jeff would beat both Johnson and Hart.

I can only reprint what was said by the various reporters at ringside for the fight, as I did in the Hart book. I'll add a bit more in the Johnson book. You all can read the accounts and draw your own conclusions. Some wholeheartedly agreed with the decision, while others thought Johnson was robbed. Take what you like.

 

H.E, I am pissed ,but even in this condition ,I can see there is no profit to be gained in conversing with you further.
I could say I am disssapointed ,but truth be told,I am seldom dissapointed in my fellow beings,because I expect zero from them,..You have reinforced that dictum. Toddle off like a good fellow.

ps Adam says.

 

Suggestion, unemotionally address legitimate questions and leave your personal demons for the rabbits !

 

NO arguments with anything you said. However the reports of the coverage from your book speaks for itself and it draws a clear picture ... by all accounts a competitive fight. However, the defensive Johnson, who went on to stop Jeffries in under 20 rounds, did not stop Hart. So at the very least you believe the man who fought Jhnson in Reno was a shell of the fighter he was five years earlier ?