REVISED: Under 185lb Tournament, FINALS # 1 Rocky Marciano vs # 2 Jack Dempsey

Interesting observation Edward.

I think the same is true to certain degree about Jeffries, although I don't have the lists here.

 

Well, here's the heavyweights

1958 Nat Fleischer
1-Jack Johnson
2-Jim Jeffries
3-Bob Fitzsimmons
4-Jack Dempsey
5-Jim Corbett

1968 Charley Rose
1-Sam Langford
2-Jack Johnson
3-Jack Dempsey
4-Joe Louis
5-Jim Jeffries

March 1975 Issue
1-Joe Louis
2-Jack Dempsey
3-Jim Jeffries
4-Jack Johnson
5-Rocky Marciano

1987 Herbert Goldman
1-Muhammad Ali
2-Sonny Liston
3-Larry Holmes
4-Jack Johson
5-Jack Dempsey

(6)-Joe Louis
(7)-Rocky Marciano

May 1994 Issue
1-Muhammad Ali
2-Joe Louis
3-Jack Johnson
4-Rocky Marciano
5-Jack Dempsey

July 1998 Issue
1-Muhammad Ali
2-Joe Louis
3-Evander Holyfield
4-George Foreman
5-Larry Holmes

(6)-Rocky Marciano
(9)-Jack Johnson
(10)-Jack Dempsey
(12)-Jim Jeffries

Yes, Jeffries' reputation has sunk even more than Dempseys. It brings up an interesting question. Did those who saw both Jeffries and Dempsey in their primes favor Dempsey? Rickard, for one, didn't.

 

Sorry M,on a M2M hook-up as middleweights solely, at their MW best, I
after decades of reading have-
1-Bob Fitzimmons : A freak of nature whom a boxing expert opined "it is cruel to put any middleweight against Fitz". Flattened 200-pounders .
2- Harry Greb- No one, but no one, catches up to him in a 15 round bout.
Never gave an opponent the ball. With a rest,he was the best...
3- Stanley Ketchel - A much superior Gerald Mcllelan- who someone said of him, "after seeing Ketchel in his prime, there is no others".Little Dempsey.
4 : Mickey Walker - strong as a bull,hence the "toy bulldog ". When sober
Walker could do it all,even at "fatter" weights...
5 - Ray Robinson- The greatest Welterweight ever, but became a MW just
a little past his peak, the greatest fighter I ever saw, bar none. The best all around fighter ever,but couldn't tackle the best "big boys" as the above could.
* I regard Sam Langford and Jack Dillon as LHs and up...
My favorite division in boxing Edward...Cheers

 

I'm still waiting for all these ATG or close to ATG fighters Jack beat than earns him this reputation he has around these parts. I see the 11' packers vs. the 11' Rams when I look at Dempsey and who he fought. Doesn't impress me much.

 

Excellent evaluations, Burt, but notice that you pick Greb over Ketchel while the early experts quoted above, like Fleischer, who went back to Ketchel's era, picked Ketchel over Greb.

 

Well JACK somehow "impressed" every boxing figure of his time, and AFTER,up to Ray Arcel of the Ali era, and somehow K, their evaluation of him [by the thousands], POSSIBLY trumps your low opinion of the Mauler,
I somehow suspect. Cheers.
P.S. I've said it before but it bears repeating.... Dempsey ,nor any other fighter that ever lived, CHOSE their date of birth....What is relavent is that at his best,he beat everyone he fought, and he was FEARED....

 

Here's a list of all the fighters Dempsey fought that was rated in the top 10 at one time or another at the end of the year ratings or a World Light Heavyweight Champion. There are no monthly ratings.

Gunboat Smith (2-0), Jess Willard (1-0), Carpentier (1-0), Carl Morris (3-0), Fred Fulton (1-0), Billy Miske (2-0-1), Tommy Gibbons (1-0), Willie Meehan (1-2-2), Luis Firpo (1-0), Jim Flynn (1-1), Jack Sharkey (1-0), Battling Levinsky (1-0) and Gene Tunney (0-2).

That's 24 fights against 13 different fighters. His record was 16-5-3. Against Meehan they were all 4 rounders, in the 1st Flynn fight, most experts claim that Dempsey took a dive.

On the other hand, Rocky fought 16 fights against 13 different fighters that were ever rated. His record was a perfect one of 16-0. Rocky also fought 8 different fighters a total of 11 times that were actually rated when he fought them.

 

Was there ANYBODY in that list that was supposed to impressive people? I asked for ATG fighters or near ATG's he beat, and that list shows none. So I ask again, how can somebody be considered one of the best, if he didn't fight some of the best. Lewis fought a whole bunch of Shannon Briggs his whole career.. am I supposed to be impressd because he was rated in the top 10 at certain points? No. Just like I'm not impressed when these are the best fighters he beat.

 

Very interesting observation, of course duly ignored by those here who support Dempsey based on "his peers rated him best".

By the way, that list from Herbert Goldman is God awful. It obviously depends on the exact criteria, but I'm dying to know how he justifies ranking Liston #2 while Louis and Marciano are #6 and #7. This is precisely the reason that I may have made somewhat derogatory remarks about "experts", whom here are described as "living & breathing boxing, having seen the fighters for fifty years", etc. And then coming up with a list that is worse than 90% of the lists posted here on ESB Classic. Hence, my remark that I value the opinion of ESB Classic at least as much of that from "experts". I put quotation marks around experts, because most people posting here are experts anyway.

Sorry, Henry. But you're still special in your own way

 

True Edward,Nat fleischer for many years chose Stanley Ketchel as the best middleweight ever. BUT in one of his last QUESTION BOX answers from a reader ,asking Nat "who would you pick between Ketchel and Greb in a match",answered GREB. That was his last answer about those two hooking up. Interestingly,a reader asked Fleischer,"what round do you think Sam Langford catches up to Greb for the KO ?" Fleischer who called Langford the best uncrowned fighter ever replied," I don't believe Langford or any man his size catches up to Greb for a ko ". This was the high esteem he held for my favorite "seven year itch",as he was once called by an opponent,who also said " I felt the ceiling opened up and a truckload of gloves came down on my head"....I personally pick Greb as the best MW ever [aside from the freakish Fitz],cause he was almost impossible to time,as he was never in the same spot, he was on the offense all the 15 rounds,reigning gloves on his opponent from every conceivable angle, never, never tired,
had an iron chin that in 300 bouts against many great fighters,15-30 pounds heavier,was never kod aside from his first few bouts as a youngster against a bigger more experienced veteran Joe Chip.So when occasionally tagged [he was human] shook off those shots and resumed his windmill attack. My dad as I have posted many times was at MSG in 1922,where he saw Greb take on Gene Tunney who was bigger and younger than Greb,and
proceeded to pulverize Tunney in the bloodiest bout my dad ever saw.He and I as a youngster saw Ray Robinson,as a WW and my dad insisted that Greb was too rough and strong for Robinson. And incidentally Ruby Goldstein ,the ex boxer and referee, told me in private to a question I posed to him,about the winner between Greb and Robinson in the 1950s? His answer Harry Greb...Cheers...

 

Burt--your post implies that Fleischer himself changed his mind about Ketchel over Greb sometime between 1958 and his death.

Why? He certainly wasn't watching either box, except perhaps Ketchel on film.

My take is that with such great fighters as Ketchel and Greb, or Marciano and Dempsey, it is quite reasonable to rate either one over the other if h2h.

If rating on records and accomplishments, I think Greb and Marciano have distinct edges.

 

Back in the day they were very highly rated. If you look at Rocky's record, the true Greats as you say, Walcott, Charles, and Louis, were all past the primes. Only Moore was at his best. After he fought Rocky, he would win his next 11 fights in a row, 8 by KO, and then get KO'ed by a 21 year old Patterson.

[FONT=&quot][/FONT][FONT=&quot]

[/FONT]

 

Don't be sorry!

That is why they have more then just 1 expert doing these ratings. I talked to Herb about this and he stated that Liston at his best, could have beaten anyone before him. Back when Patterson was the Champion, Liston was the most feared fighter in the World, and he beat guys like Folley, Williams, Valdez and Machen along the way, but the management of Patterson wanted no part of Liston.

 

unforgiven does not no why either. he tried to log in again to day same thing - just a message it says " reason for ban : unspecified.. date you will be allowed back : never"
it shows up in his profile as last activity today 5:31PM GMT)but he has zero access to the board

billy boy cant imagin reason either. an the unforgiven one has no idea. he got shafted no reason.
he is no more.