Any big moves in your top 20 p4p all time lately?

Ray Leonard jumped Ray Robinson and Prenell Whitaker from #4 to #2 on my list.
Floyd Mayweather is looking more like a solid top 10 ATG rather than someonre to be considered for the top 10.

 

edit- Louis from number 10 to 20 or something.....

 

The more i've learned the more i've come to realise that there are about 40-50 guys who are easily interchangeable after maybe the top 12 or 15. Which pretty much says my lists were ****, as i didnt know ****.

I can no longer deny Harry Greb. So he's right up there. If there's no film of them to judge, all i need is to see just 1 or 2 fights from their era in which the fighters are impressive and then its just simple math after that. Greb has a sick resume..but would he look impressive on film? Walker and Tunney do, so it is safe to assume yes, and maybe even undeniable that he would.(off topic but - Jack Dempsey looks less impressive than these 3 and has a poorer resume than these 3, so he is still ****). Though im still not sold on any era before this one.

Ross, Canzi, Charles(though nowhere near as high as you guys like to elevate him to) ive become a believer of.

Holyfield, Conn and James Toney are 3 guys i wouldnt usually have considered, but could easily make it now.(I think guys from MW to CW, messing with HW's is by far the hardest class jump to make, and im liking these guys right now)

Hagler and Hearns were always in my top 10 and now they wouldnt be, Hearns especially.

Ive always believed the Heavyweights dont get a fair shake in P4P, simply because they're not as technical(which is far from the be and end all), though i would avoid ranking them anyway for some reason, and have them give ground for weight jumpers. I think Marciano would definatley make my top 20 now.

But im not going to attempt an actual top 20, because i know the guy i pick at 15 could easily be a lesser fighter than a random name i generate for the 50 spot from a list of fighters i consider great. So whats the ****ing point?:think

 

Based on his emphatic win over the great V. Ortiz?

 

Now that Vitali is close to retirement I have moved him into the top 10 ATG heavyweight list.

 

It's about DAMN time. Now keep looking at Ezzard. He's gonna convince you sooner or later.

 

Well, I've moved Ali above Duran. That's it unfortunately.

 

I'm not usually one for doing my own lists, though i do like to look at them.
I think that the HW's should always be ranked seperately IMO.

 

Lists are reliant on criteria - do you judge on Resume? Peak ability? Longevity? Someone could be very good for 15-20years and another fighter maybe, how do you judge that?

Then in terms of ability - skill versus raw brawn - what wins out? We don't know in head to heads. Pep-Saddler being perhaps the ultimate example of a clash of styles. Skills wise I don't rate Saddler particularly because he was a physical monster of a FW. Pep maybe the most skilled ever but according to John Garfield lazy in the gym and this is perhaps why Saddler overwhelmed him physically

I believe some fighters have amazing longevity. Hopkins being a good example and Moore I believe to be another. Excellent throughout their careers but neither was ever the best of the best at the very elite level but they have incredible consistency, determination to stay at the top and very deep reigns and resumes. Then you have someone like Tyson who looks unbeatable for a short period of time. I have no doubt in my mind that if Tyson, Hopkins and Moore were all at their best and the same size that Tyson would beat them both and I'm sure some would disagree. To me P4P should be who is flat out better.

Dominance is important, not losing, proving you're better than your contemparies. But obviously it needs competition too. Then you have fighters who campaign in a division where they have all the physical advantages and sometimes in weak divisions. Imagine if Patterson hadn't force fed himself to be a HW, how long would he have reigned at LHW? But he went for the biggest prize, as fans for some reason Archie Moore gets rated higher for ultimately failing at HW but succeeding at LHW, Patterson dominated him while being only 21, while being the same size.

Fighters aren't necessarily better because they have a better resume, it's proof of the pudding, but it doesn't necessarily make them better, they could just have had all the right fights at the right times. If a fighter gets the chance to face everyone in his era he has the chance to amass a wonderful resume, fighters don't have the opportunity to face everyone in their era, it's just not feesable. Their opponents also don't so they too aren't able to showcase their skills as many time and are thus considered weaker opponents. Does that mean they are in essence lesser fighters? Or they just didn't get the chance to prove how great they are?

I used to think Armstrong to be heavily overrated and I still do a bit but the more I watch him, the more he has gone up in my estimation. Ross too has gone up in my estimation although I don't think he's as good as similar technicians like Whitaker, Benny Leonard, Mayweather or Benitez.

Greb I'm beginning to believe must have been technically pretty skilled, people compare him to Calzaghe but I think he must have been better defensively. Calzaghe is more of a welsh Ray Leonard. I do think his opportunity to fight so often flatters him though

So I don't do lists for these reasons but if I did I could easily rate Tyson and Patterson over Archie Moore and Hopkins, I think Marciano has a case to be rated over Moore too. Easily rate Jones Jr over Harry Greb. And pains me to say I could rate Saddler over Willie Pep. And it would all be Carlsbergy

 

Just inside the tiers where the ranking nyway mostly depends of which fighter I saw the most recently.

 

In my rather infamous top 100 list I did earlier this year, Paciquao was up 67 places (100 to 33), from 2007.

But in my top 20*, there were a few movers, the numbers in the bracket indicating their 2007 place:

23 Julio Cesar Chavez (19)
22 Charley Burley (11)
21 Mickey Walker (5)
20 Pernell Whitaker (20)
19 (Barbados) Joe Walcott (32)
18 Sammy Langford (18)
17 Willie Pep (6)
16 Sandy Saddler (7)
15 Barney Ross (17)
14 Joe Gans (26)
13 Carlos Monzon (15)
12 Benny Leonard (12)
11 Jimmy Wilde (8)
10 Ray Leonard (16)
9 Joe Louis (27)
8 Archie Moore (4)
7 Ezzard Charles (14)
6 Muhammad Ali (10)
5 Bob Fitzsimmons (13)
4 Harry Greb (9)
3 Roberto Duran (3)
2 Henry Armstrong (2)
1 Ray Robinson (1)

*I listed the top 23, to show you all the fighters I rated as top 20 in 2007.

In 2011 I had something against the Feathers, and a new respect for Heavies...

 

In my case, the big changes tend to be curent fighters moving up, because I am a hard task master for them.

They get placed alongside the greats of the past, only when their paper resume's warant it.