Is Charles really the greatest LHW in History?

Discussion in 'Classic Boxing Forum' started by lufcrazy, Nov 9, 2011.


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  1. El Bujia

    El Bujia Boxing Junkie Full Member

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    When combined with a wins resume which is at the very least comparable to anyone else's it does.
     
    El Bujia, Nov 9, 2011
    El Bujia, Nov 9, 2011
    #16
  2. McGrain

    McGrain Diamond Dog Staff Member

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    Almost!

    Added to a very good W column it certainly does, at least in my eyes.
     
    McGrain, Nov 9, 2011
    McGrain, Nov 9, 2011
    #17
  3. lufcrazy

    lufcrazy requiescat in pace Full Member

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    But those fights where at lhw and moving up to challenge is part and parcel of the game; imagine what the mw rankings would be if we discounted the victories over the likes of napoles, griffith, leonard, hearns, duran, walker?
     
    lufcrazy, Nov 9, 2011
    lufcrazy, Nov 9, 2011
    #18
  4. TheGreatA

    TheGreatA Boxing Junkie Full Member

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    The likes of Griffith, Hearns, Leonard, Duran and Walker atleast proved their ability at middleweight. Napoles did not which is why I don't count it as a huge win for Monzon.

    Beating the champion of the division below you is always an achievement though, especially when you beat an exceptional one like Jose Napoles. Beating Pavlik is also an achievement for Hopkins but it will not go down as a feat worth mentioning next to what the likes of Charles, Greb or Moore achieved as light heavyweights.

    I'm sure you agree that beating a not very exceptional middleweight in Bob Moha isn't worth mentioning at all in these discussions.
     
    TheGreatA, Nov 9, 2011
    TheGreatA, Nov 9, 2011
    #19
  5. lufcrazy

    lufcrazy requiescat in pace Full Member

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    I'm not saying, btw, that charles shouldn't be number 1.

    I'm just saying that after digging deeper it isn't an automatic choice.

    I think greb, tunney and moore have a solid argument.

    Charles run from 46 is great though.

    His top end wins over moore, marshall, bivins and lesnevich are great. Are they as good as wins over tunney, dillon, gibbons and rosenbloom?
     
    lufcrazy, Nov 9, 2011
    lufcrazy, Nov 9, 2011
    #20
  6. lufcrazy

    lufcrazy requiescat in pace Full Member

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    Beating any top ranked man from the division below is an achievement in my mind.

    :lol: it's not a case of moha being the deciding factor. Certainly noteworthy though, people can decide how much emphasis they place on it for themselves, no?
     
    lufcrazy, Nov 9, 2011
    lufcrazy, Nov 9, 2011
    #21
  7. McGrain

    McGrain Diamond Dog Staff Member

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    Moore does have a shout with the right criteria, and Greb is consistently under-rated there for me. I think it's definitely fair to look again.
     
    McGrain, Nov 9, 2011
    McGrain, Nov 9, 2011
    #22
  8. TheGreatA

    TheGreatA Boxing Junkie Full Member

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    What really separates them for me is Charles's established superiority in those fights. He did not only beat them, he did so convincingly and repeatedly.

    Greb beat Tunney and was also beaten by Tunney and eventually bested in the series. Gibbons also split fights with Greb but lost the most important one. Rosenbloom was not as seasoned as he later would be, he was a middleweight back then, Dillon too. Not arguing that they didn't have their success as light heavyweights. It's just that one has to look at the circumstances surrounding the wins to separate the two fighters.

    You could also say that Marshall, Bivins beat a young Charles while losing as they aged, but even then Charles comes off rather well. I mean, flattening Bivins, Moore and Marshall. Not only outpointing them, not only stopping them, but scoring highlight reel knockouts over them all? That is impressive.
     
    TheGreatA, Nov 9, 2011
    TheGreatA, Nov 9, 2011
    #23
  9. lufcrazy

    lufcrazy requiescat in pace Full Member

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    No love for tunney?

    I think I am leaning towards charles but there's not much in it at all between him and greb imo.
     
    lufcrazy, Nov 9, 2011
    lufcrazy, Nov 9, 2011
    #24
  10. tommygun711

    tommygun711 The Future Full Member

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    What about Spinks?
     
    tommygun711, Nov 9, 2011
    tommygun711, Nov 9, 2011
    #25
  11. lufcrazy

    lufcrazy requiescat in pace Full Member

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    I only look at losses suffered in one's prime so his losses in 44? Mean nothing to me.

    I think rosenbloom is a good comparison with lesnevic. Dillon a good comparison with marshall. Tunney a good comparison with moore and gibbons a good comparison with bivins.

    These two era's are actually stacked full of talent for the division.

    I think so far i'm looking at greb and charles for top spot (unless a post 60's lhw overtakes them)
     
    lufcrazy, Nov 9, 2011
    lufcrazy, Nov 9, 2011
    #26
  12. lufcrazy

    lufcrazy requiescat in pace Full Member

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    Only up to 1960 in my reevaluation of the division :good
     
    lufcrazy, Nov 9, 2011
    lufcrazy, Nov 9, 2011
    #27
  13. Boilermaker

    Boilermaker Boxing Junkie Full Member

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    Where do you rate Fitzsimmons, who trumps all by a long way in the longevity stakes, but is disadvantaged, because the division didnt exist and because (as a light heavyweight) he was good enough to fight and beat the very best heavyweights?

    Tommy Burns is probably the most underated fighter in this division, he could easily be right in the mix.
     
    Boilermaker, Nov 9, 2011
    Boilermaker, Nov 9, 2011
    #28
  14. the cobra

    the cobra Awesomeizationism! Full Member

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    This is what it basically comes down to.
     
    the cobra, Nov 9, 2011
    the cobra, Nov 9, 2011
    #29
  15. Senya13

    Senya13 Boxing Junkie Full Member

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    Ring Magazine
    Hardest hitting light heavyweight of 1995 - Merqui Sosa
    1996-01-12 Roy Jones Jr W-TKO2 Merqui Sosa
     
    Senya13, Nov 9, 2011
    Senya13, Nov 9, 2011
    #30
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