The problem with Juan Manuel Marquez....

shan7-8-6 · Nov 10, 2011

LOL wtf does egypt have to do with this thread...i cant bothered reading the 1st 10 pages....but isnt this a boxing forum? Not a history class! lol

The Funny Man 7 · Nov 10, 2011

It's his greatest assett.

Etu86 · Nov 10, 2011

Nay_Sayer said: ↑

Do they really?

Lol. They certainly look like they possess "substantial" amounts of "caucasian" DNA with their dark skin.

lol...

If you're going to use the term "negroid" then you should be prepared to DEFINE it.

Please define the term "negroid" and be sure to cite your sources - that is *IF* you can.

I'm waiting.
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Etu86 · Nov 10, 2011

Nay_Sayer said: ↑

Oops, is that YOUR source?
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Etu86 · Nov 10, 2011

Nay_Sayer said: ↑

More haplogroup M goodness...

Quote:
"The richest basal variation in the founder haplogroups , N and R is found among the southern stretch of Eurasia, particularly in the Indian subcontinent (Figure 1), suggesting a rapid colonization along the southern coast of Asia.. Western Eurasians, in contrast with Southern Asians, eastern Eurasians, and Australasians, have a high level of haplogroup diversity within the haplogroup N and R, but lack haplogroup M also entirely
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Nay_Sayer said: ↑

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Nay_Sayer said: ↑

--Paola Spinozzi, Alessandro Zironi .
(2010). Origins as a Paradigm in the
Sciences and in the Humanities.
Vandenhoeck & Ruprecht. pp. 48-50
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Nay_Sayer said: ↑

..the M1 presence in the Arabian peninsula signals a predominant East African influence since the Neolithic onwards.
-- Petraglia, M and Rose, J
(2010). The Evolution of Human
Populations in Arabia:
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Etu86 · Nov 10, 2011

Nay_Sayer said: ↑

More haplogroup M goodness...

Quote:
Macrohaplogroup M in Arabia
Macrohaplogroup M is particularly abundant and diverse in South and Southeast Asia, reaching frequencies above 60% in some regions (Metspalu et al., 2004). However, it is practically absent in western Asia (Quintana-Murci et al., 2004).
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, only one autochthonous basal branch of M, named M1, has been detected (Quintana-Murci et al., 1999).
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M1 is particularly abundant in Ethiopia (20%). From there, frequencies significantly diminish forming decreasing gradients westwards and southwards. It has been proposed that the presence of M1 in Africa and surrounding Mediterranean areas can be explained as result of
two expansion centers situated in East and Northwest Africa which are marked by the radiation of subhaplogroups M1a and M1b respectively (Olivieri et al., 2006; González et al., 2007).
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when the Sahara was a more hospitable region. Some authors consider that the presence of M1 in Africa supports the idea that macrohaplogroup M originated in eastern Africa and was carried towards Asia
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with the out of Africa expansion (Quintana-Murci et al., 1999),
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Etu86 · Nov 10, 2011

SILENCER said: ↑

etu you know he actually posted this image,passing it off as a tomb painting depicting black egyptians?

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SILENCER said: ↑

it is in fact a book ilustration,the blacks are actually nubian ambassadaors.

now lets make this real simple:

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who are the ones kneeling and who are the ones standing? give me a simple answer,if you refuse to answer this question it is a blatant duck,now who are the ones kneeling?
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Etu86 · Nov 10, 2011

Nay_Sayer said: ↑

You obviously can't read, Genius.

His WHOLE argument is premised on an *alleged* back migration into Africa that, if it did indeed happened, probably took place some 40-45 thousand years ago.

Be patient and watch as I pick the rest of his arguments apart one by one.
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Etu86 · Nov 10, 2011

SILENCER said: ↑

no ****

as for your hero dr keita:

it can be imagined that the modern diversity to be found in Egypt. in terms of craniofacial features skin colour what have you, would likely have been very similar to that found in the past.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aZssWb4MmGM&feature=player_embedded#!

even he disagrees with you.
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Etu86 · Nov 10, 2011

Nay_Sayer said: ↑

We'll see...

Once again, Mr "Archaeologist", YOUR OWN SOURCE REFUTES YOU.
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Nay_Sayer said: ↑

Quote:
The nature of the body plan was also investigated by comparing the intermembral, brachial, and crural indices for these samples with values obtained from the literature. No significant differences were found in either index through time for either sex. The raw values in Table 6 suggest that Egyptians had the “super-Negroid” body plan described by Robins (1983). The values for the brachial and crural indices show that the distal segments of each limb are longer relative to the proximal segments than in many “African” populations (data from Aiello and Dean, 1990). This pattern is supported by Figure 7 (a plot of population mean femoral and tibial lengths; data from Ruff, 1994), which indicates that the Egyptians generally have tropical body plans.
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. Despite these differences, all samples lie relatively clustered together as compared to the other populations.
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Nay_Sayer · Nov 10, 2011

Etu86 said: ↑

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Source for these quotes please.

Etu86 · Nov 10, 2011

etu86 said: ↑

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Etu86 · Nov 10, 2011

Nay_Sayer said: ↑

Source for these quotes please.
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Etu86 · Nov 10, 2011

Etu86 said: ↑

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Etu86 · Nov 10, 2011

Gained said: ↑

I notice you in your delusions you are running a false victory parade ,how unfortunate for you that etu86 has throroughly debunked and humiliated you already.

Quoting afrocentric sources and wysinger is laughable. I suggest you read hard and good

By the way your profile pix of Seti :heres Seti's mummy and image which tallys perfectly-your Seti image is the reddish hue that was done for males-not negriod black

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The mummy of Pharaoh Seti I is the most lifelike of the great pharaohs of Egypt, and a tribute to the embalmer's art. His
caucasian features remain crystal clear and because of the excellent preservation process, Seti's mummy can easily be
compared with a relief of his face made in his lifetime at the Temple at Abydos. Please classify Pharaoh Seti I. He
Shares morphological traits with certain Europid types (Mediterranean but Dinarid in particular: forehead sits high on skull, strong projection of the maxilla etc.).
The zygoma are pronounced and the lower jaw is quite "heavy-this man is a caucasion
Only the mummies of a very few pharaohs have survived to the 20th century, however, a large proportion of these are blond.
"We examined radiographs of 12 Egyptian royal mummies obtained by two of the authors (W.R. and J.E.H.) and never before published... These people were Caucasian." ("1988 Braunstein, M.D. et al)

The Egyptians have left us many paintings and statues of blonds and redheads. Amenhotep III's tomb painting shows him as having light red hair. Also, his features are quite Caucasian

The African population that spawned the E haplogroup is the same population that spawned the Out of Africa Migration. This population was already, while in Africa, differentiated from the population that spawn what we know as black Africans. The proto-Eurasian population(Non Negroid) when expanding, also mixed with the proto-Negroid population.
Egyptians were indigenous from the start with Caucasoid features in which you cannot provide evidence only afrocentric sources-you debunked yourself here

"We propose that African chromosomes descend from at least two lineages that have been evolving separately for a period of time. One of them underwent range expansion colonizing different continents, including Africa, where it mixed with another, local lineage represented today by a large fraction of African-specific haplotypes." (Labuda et al. 2000
The ancestors of Africans and non-Africans split apart almost 200,000 years ago, much earlier than previously thought, a study of DNA in living populations has found. The estimate is so early that it precedes by some 70,000 years the first known fossils of modern humans." (NY Times, 1999)"

Lets see how the studies based on the teeth of pre-Dynastic Egyptians proving they were not Negroes which demolishes your notions of "black" Egypt.

The claims are laughable.

Ancient Egyptians had simple, mass-reduced teeth. This contrasts with the dental pattern of Sub-Saharan Africans who had (Irish, 2000) massive complex teeth:

Dentitions of Late Pleistocene Jebel Sahaba Nubians have extremely high frequencies of complex, mass-additive (and other) traits, including UI1 labial curvature, UI1 shoveling, Bushman Canine, UC distal accessory ridge, midline diastema, sixcusped LM1, LM2 Y-5, and LP1 Tomes root. Furthermore, they exhibit low frequencies of typical North African features. This trait combination is ubiquitous in sub-Saharan Africans (Irish & Turner, 1990; Irish, 1993, 1997, 1998a,b, for details).
From a newer article:

However, all 15 samples exhibit morphologically simple, mass reduced dentitions that are similar to those in populations from greater North Africa (Irish, 1993, 1998ac, 2000) and, to a lesser extent, western Asia and Europe (Turner, 1985a; Turner and Markowitz, 1990; Roler, 1992; Lipschultz, 1996; Irish, 1998a). Similar craniofacial measurements among samples from these regions were reported as well (Brace et al., 1993).
And from Hanihara et al. a different study which shows the same Caucasoid affiliations of the Egyptian dental pattern.
Who were the ancient Egyptians? Dental affinities among Neolithic through postdynastic peoples.
Irish JD.

Qualitative and quantitative methods are employed to describe and compare up to 36 dental morphological variants in 15 Neolithic through Roman-period Egyptian samples. Trait frequencies are determined, and phenetic affinities are calculated using the mean measure of divergence and Mahalanobis D(2) statistics for discrete traits; the most important traits in generating this intersample variation are identified with correspondence analysis. Assuming that the samples are representative of the populations from which they derive, and that phenetic similarity provides an estimate of genetic relatedness, these affinities are suggestive of overall population continuity. That is, other than a few outliers exhibiting extreme frequencies of nine influential traits, the dental samples appear to be largely homogenous and can be characterized as having morphologically simple, mass-reduced teeth. These findings are contrasted with those resulting from previous skeletal and other studies, and are used to appraise the viability of five Egyptian peopling scenarios. Specifically, affinities among the 15 time-successive samples suggest that: 1) there may be a connection between Neolithic and subsequent predynastic Egyptians, 2) predynastic Badarian and Naqada peoples may be closely related, 3) the dynastic period is likely an indigenous continuation of the Naqada culture, 4) there is support for overall biological uniformity through the dynastic period, and 5) this uniformity may continue into postdynastic times.

Sources (in order of appearance):
Irish JD, (2000) The Iberomaurusian enigma: north African progenitor or dead end? J Hum Evol. 2000 Oct;39(4):393-410.
Irish JD and Turner C, (1990) West African dental affinity of Late Pleistocene Nubians: Peopling of the Eurafrican-South Asian triangle II. Homo 41:42-53.
Irish JD, (1993) Biological affinities of late Pleistocene through modern African aboriginal populations: the dental evidence. Ph.D. dissertation, Arizona State University, Tempe.
Irish JD, (1997) Characteristic high- and low-frequency dental traits in sub-Saharan African populations. Am J Phys Anthropol 102:455467.
Irish JD, (1998a) Dental morphological indications of population discontinuity and Egyptian gene flow in post-Paleolithic Nubia. In: Lukacs JR, editor. Human dental development, morphology, and pathology: a tribute to Albert A. Dahlberg. University of Oregon anthropological papers 54. Eugene: University of Oregon Press. p 155172.
Irish JD, (1998b) Dental morphological affinities of late Pleistocene through recent sub-Saharan and North African peoples. Bull Mem Soc Anthropol Paris 10:237272.
Brace et al (1993) Clines and clusters versus race: A test in ancient Egypt and the case of a death on the Nile. Yearbook of Physical Anthropology, 36, 1-36.
Hanihara T and Ishida H, (2005) Metric dental variation of major human populations American Journal of Physical Anthropology, Volume 128 Issue 2, Pages 287 - 298.
Irish JD, (2006) Who were the ancient Egyptians? Dental affinities among Neolithic through postdynastic peoples. Am J Phys Anthropol. 2006 Apr;129(4):529-43.

Craniofacial morphology
One of the best ways to determine the race of a population is their skull type. A study was done by (Brace et al., 1993) who tested 24 various cranial measurements from around the world. The Ancient Egyptians were included. The results showed that the predynastic Egyptians clustered well with SW Asia and Neolithic Europe, North Africa, and NE Africa.
The Egyptian skulls showed very little similarity to Negroid African skulls from the distant south to west
Egyptians cluster well with Caucasoid Eurasians and DO NOT cluster with Negroids.
Upper Egypt, which was really to the south, is closer to the Negroid cluster. This may indicate slight Negroid admixture.
Other studies have come to similar conclusions:
Howells(1989,1995) and Froment (1992,1994)
SOURCES:
Brace, et al. (1993) Clines and Clusters Versus "Race": A Test in Ancient Egypt and the Case of a Death on the Nile. Yearbook of Physical Anthropology 36:1-31
Howells WW (1989) Skull Shapes and the Map.Craniometric Analyses in the Dispersion of Modern Homo. Cambridge: Peabody Museum of Archaeology and Ethnology, Harvard University.
Howells WW (1995) Who's Who in Skulls. Ethnic Identification of Crania from Measurements. Cambridge: Peabody Museum of Archaeology and Ethnology, Harvard University.
Froment A (1992) Origines du Peuplement de l'Egypte Ancienne: l'Apport de l'anthropobiologie. Archéo-Nil 2:79-98.
Froment A (1994) Race et Histoire: La recomposition ideologique de l'image des Egyptiens anciens. Journal des Africanistes 64:37-64.
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