The best Hw's ever.

Boilermaker · Nov 11, 2011

mattdonnellon said: ↑

Boilermaker said: ↑

I make that 19 fighters in tier 4 which leaves 32. I agree with most but Willard, Miske and McCarthy? while leaving Flynn, Kaufman, Root and Farnan in? interesting take.
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It was done very quickly. I think Willard was an error, he should have been tier 3. He is actually a good interesting case, and difficult to rate. I normally rate him much higher, because he was held in high esteem until Dempsey. But i am down on Fulton a bit at the moment and I think that Fulton's victories in 4 round fights shows Willard up a bit in the skills department, particularly when he didnt really do anything overly great in his title reign or his pre or post titl;e reign.

McCarthy, I simply dont rate as much as others. I think his early death enhances his legacy and i dont really think he was anything overly special above the white contenders of the time. If he was, he would have been rushed much quicker into a Johnson title fight, imo.

Farnan i stand very firm on. He was the Australian champion. At worst, this puts him in alphabet title class. But unlike others such as Tom Lees, who probably should rank in this class, He legitimised his claims with the win over all time great Peter Jackson. I know that this is often written off as a green Jackson, but like Choynski, Farnan is usually gets sold short for this win. Idoubt many others were capable of repeating that feat.

Miske I am quite a bit down n the moment. Good fighter, but not as great as i used to think. Some of these are very tough calls though, and there is not much in it, and it is easy to change opinion depending on what you happen to have read recently.
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lufcrazy · Nov 11, 2011

Ok, this is by no means concrete, but as a provisional list how would this stand up for the era up until 1921:

Johnson
Dempsey
Langford
Jeffries
Sullivan
Wills
Jackson
McVey
Fitzsimmons
Corbett
Willard

The top 11 I'm settled with because these all achieved, in my eyes, something the next 19 didn't: top spot in the division. At some point or another I have each of these guys as a number 1 in their division. For me that is a true mark of a great and is enough to outstrip anyone who didn't achieve the same honour.

Jeannette
Hart
Maher
Slavin
Burns
Choynski
Godfrey
Childs
Fulton

These 9 I'm not as confident on, but I think all of them have a decent argument for being top class HW's within their own era, just never quite hitting the top spot, the bottom 10 I'm very shaky on and had difficulty differentiating between them at this level.

Martin
Gunboat Smith
Sharkey
Norfolk
Ed Smith
Ruhlin
Brennan
Flynn
Kaufman
Moran

In all likelihood i've made some heinous erros there. I will again stress my top 11 are concrete. It's the next 19 I'm unsure about, some of them are locks (hart, jeannett, maher etc) I've tried to include any linear or couloured champs by virtue of being atleast top 3 of any given time frame.

My trouble was with the contenders, most of whom had very similar resume's and or perceived threat levels.

Still, as a starting point I think it could be worse?

lufcrazy · Nov 11, 2011

orriray59 said: ↑

If anybody is going to help out with this, it's lufcrazy.
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haha I do love my HW history :good

Brian Zelley · Nov 11, 2011

Interesting idea: 1. How about James J Corbett and Bob Fitzsimmons in the first list of heavyweights.

lufcrazy · Nov 11, 2011

Suzie; Great work on the drafts for the next era's btw!

lufcrazy · Nov 11, 2011

Brian Zelley said: ↑

Interesting idea: 1. How about James J Corbett and Bob Fitzsimmons in the first list of heavyweights.
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They certainly belong IMO

mattdonnellon · Nov 12, 2011

Thinking of culling this lot in red before rating them;

Sullivan

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Slavin

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Goddard
Corbett
Choynsky
Jackson
Denver Ed Smith
Fitz
Maher

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Ruhlin
Sharkey
Jeffries
McCoy

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Hart
O'Brien

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Burns
Hart
Johnson
Martin
McVea
Jeannette
Langford

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Gunboat Smith
McCarthy

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Willard

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Miske
Gibbons

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Fulton
Brennan
Dempsey
Wills
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Boilermaker, Farnan was my last man out, loss to Lees hurt him too much, I think.
Any strong views on this list or culling?

mattdonnellon · Nov 12, 2011

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Suzie, see you have Joe Louis in there, good solid pick.
Bivins a good pick too but I wouldn't put him in twice!
Great list and just a few Id like to get your view on, Hamas, Renault, Neussel, LaStarza, Sys and Tangberg?
The fighters in green I think a shoe-in.
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the blue one's I'd have as well but others might disagree. If you agree that's 24 of the 30.

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Paolino Uzcuden
Johnny Risko
Tom Heeney

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John Henry Lewis
Ernie Schaff
Young Stribling
Jack Trammell
Lem Franklin
Harry Bobo

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Eddie Blunt
Lee Savold
Melio Bettina
Joey Maxim

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Lou Nova
Arturo Godoy
Nathan Mann
Al Ettore
Gus Dorazio

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Abe Simon
Roscoe Toles

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Tami Mauriello
Joe Baski
Pat Valentino
Lee Oma
Hatchetman Sheppard

lufcrazy · Nov 12, 2011

Bivins was a great heavyweight imo. He basically ruled the roost whilst louis was at war.

Btw is this supposed to be h2h ratings or based on achievements?

I think childs run as coloured champ certainly places him in the top 30.

Does anyone else have a preliminary top 30 ranking for the first era or is mine the only attempt thus far?

mattdonnellon · Nov 12, 2011

lufcrazy said: ↑

Bivins was a great heavyweight imo. He basically ruled the roost whilst louis was at war.

Btw is this supposed to be h2h ratings or based on achievements?

I think childs run as coloured champ certainly places him in the top 30.

Does anyone else have a preliminary top 30 ranking for the first era or is mine the only attempt thus far?
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I agree Bivins was great but Suzie listed him twice, he wasn't that good. http://www.eastsideboxing.com/forum/images/smilies/hey.gif
Achievements in the main but h2h allowed to split close ones. My top 30 above for the first era. Hadn't Childs in but it's an acceptable call, who to take out though?

lufcrazy · Nov 12, 2011

mattdonnellon said: ↑

I agree Bivins was great but Suzie listed him twice, he wasn't that good. http://www.eastsideboxing.com/forum/images/smilies/hey.gif
Achievements in the main but h2h allowed to split close ones. My top 30 above for the first era. Hadn't Childs in but it's an acceptable call, who to take out though?
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haha agreed there. The anmes in white are your top 30? thought about any order yet?

lufcrazy · Nov 12, 2011

p.s I'd take gibbons out; he was primarily a light heavyweight, no?

mattdonnellon · Nov 12, 2011

lufcrazy said: ↑

p.s I'd take gibbons out; he was primarily a light heavyweight, no?
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Dunno, from 1921'ish he mainly fought heavys esp in his major fights.

mattdonnellon · Nov 12, 2011

top 5

johnson
dempsey
jeffries
fitz
langford

6 corbett
7 jackson
8 mcvea
9 wills
10 jeannette
11 burns
12 maher
13 sharkey
14 goddard
15 sullivan
16 hart
17 slavin
18 willard
19 martin
20 o'brien
21 mc coy
22 ruhlin
23 mc carthy
24 choynsky
25 gibbons
26 gunboat smith
27 fulton
28 ed smith
29 childs
30 miske

Thoughts?

lufcrazy · Nov 12, 2011

mattdonnellon said: ↑

top 5

johnson
dempsey
jeffries
fitz
langford

6 corbett
7 jackson
8 mcvea
9 wills
10 jeannette
11 burns
12 maher
13 sharkey
14 goddard
15 sullivan
16 hart
17 slavin
18 willard
19 martin
20 o'brien
21 mc coy
22 ruhlin
23 mc carthy
24 choynsky
25 gibbons
26 gunboat smith
27 fulton
28 ed smith
29 childs
30 miske

Thoughts?
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I think the top 11 should all be those who were top of the world at some point, maybe top 12 if you buy into maher's claim.

Other than that it's solid. Surprised miske makes the cut but I can see why

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