Do you consider Juan Manuel Marquez to be an ATG

So you are saying there should be no judges? A piece of paper with a number of tens and nines on it, will not win you a case in court. Judging is subjective and it can lead to what most would consider an error, but the assumption must be it was a fair error, we all have bad days at the office.

 

Marquez legacy doesn't rest on the solely on the shoulders of Pacquaio. He of course beat Barrera, was pretty much considered the best across 3 weight divisions and by rights should be a 4 weight champion. You can also make a good case for each of his defeats to be wins bar the Mayweather fight

 

1. I didn't say it did.
2. He did and it doesn't go without consideration by me.
3. Was he? :huh
4. I can make a good case for a lot of things, PP. It doesn't make them right.

 

I said Pacquiao is not one of the very greatest, meaning he is no Roberto Duran, no Sugar Ray Robinson, no Joe Louis.

He is good for this time, shooting up strong, limited title holders. But he has struggled mightily with the best fighters he has faced, past their prime when they faced Manny.

The 28-year-old Morales and 38-year-old Márquez have been PacMan's dates with greatness and he has been found wanting. There is nothing hysterical about it.

 

Wait, struggling mightily with the best you face is...what? Uncommon in some way? Did Ray Robinson struggle with his best like Basilio, Gavilan, LaMotta...? Did Louis struggle with his best like Walcott and Schmeling? Did Duran struggle mightily with Hagler, Hearns, Benitez and Leonard at any time? I thought it was obvious that you ordinarily struggle with the best you face, if the group is at all special.

And, for the record, as strange as it might sound, while Marquez has been aging...so has Manny. Manny's been in brutal war after brutal war throughout his career. He also had his date with greatness against a prime Barrera and I don't remember him being found wanting there at all. Do you? How are you shoving in the Morales fight and leaving out the Barrera fight so conveniently? I sense a bias here. He's been fighting the best for most of his career, and usually wins. Like most of the top greats. I rate him in the top 20-30. I think regardless of one match-up with one fighter, we can pretty much say he's one of the greatest. I don't see how it's even particularly debatable at this point, unless your memory is rather short. The kind that forgets wins like, say, the Barrera win, for instance.

 

Ears

 

Good to know true boxing fans are out there. My wife is Pinoy, and all they talk about is winning. I tell them he didn't win, the judges gave him the decision. Marquez ring IQ is what put him over MAB and Morales for me. The way he disrupted Pacman's offense was masterful. He's a great, great fighter who doesn't get enough accolades. I would like to see him and Morales at 140. That would be a great fight.

 

Another close fight that could have gone either way for mine. Talk of a robbery is way off.

I actually had Pac winning by a couple of points 116-114 (Pac winning rounds 1,6,10,11 and 12, with rounds 3 and 8 being even) but I can see how some might have edged it to Marquez.

What I have to say is Manny Pacquiao is a fantastic athlete but as far as boxing skill goes, he would have to be one of the worst amongst the ATGs.

Absolutely no infighting skills, falling in and amatuerishly covering up after he gets his shots off, no ability to feint an inside move and then stand in to counter Marquez's counters. He hardly threw a single body shot despite Marquez being on aging legs. Just a really poor show of skill for mine.

Marquez fought well, but it was no 'masterpiece' and many a past great would have easily disposed of him tonight. Pacquiao simply fought a dumb as well as a embarrassing fight skill wise.

 

Chavez would push both JMM and Pac's **** in on the same night.

Unlike Pacquiao, he knows what a body punch is, and he knows how to stand in and take a shot in order to deliver a better placed one back.

 

:rofl The greatest leave no doubt they are the best in their time. Your examples do you in: Robinson bested his opposition, as did Louis. Pacquiao hasn't.

I will indulge you and state the obvious:

Barrera was past his best, having already come back from retirement and had had two wars with Morales.

Morales, after three wars with Barrera, upset a hard-charging Pacquiao in their first meeting. Yeah, yeah, the other two later fights. You must be honest and admit that Morales was at the end of his career while Pacquiao was hitting his prime.

And the 36 rounds with Márquez are now an eternal cloud of doubt over PacMan's legacy.

As things stand now, Mayweather, another Pacquiao contemporary and clear victor over Márquez, can himself be regarded above PacMan. Mayweather has similarities to Márquez and should be favored over Manny in a hypothetical matchup.

All this is just discussing PacMan's contemporaries. Where is PacMan's Tyson-like Reign of Terror over boxing? Where is his Bum-of-the-Month Club? Where are the calls to bring an old champ out of retirement to erase his golden smile?

Nowhere. He has enough facing the greats of his time. He may still prove himself but he has a lot of work to do.

Pac is great. I actually rank him similarly to you. But he is no Harry Greb.

 

In red: Then what the **** are we arguing about, as I never said he was in that league. Were you taking the original position that NOW we know he wasn't? Because who, especially on classic, was saying he was?

In green: You're stating that Barrera was past it when Pac fought him and it was obvious? ****'s sake. :verysad

In orange:

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In red: Well, actually he did best Morales, two of three, despite where he was at in his career, did best Barrera, two of two and including his result with Marquez, well, none of the group of Barrera/Morales/Marquez and Pacquiao have done better than Pacquiao, in total. So, I'd say, yeah, he actually proved the best there, of his peers, and quite obviously. But, since I didn't say I rank him with Robinson or Louis, I don't know why we're bringing that up, as I only replied to your "mightily struggling" with your best opposition reasoning but wasn't directly comparing them.


In pink:

As far as May and Pac, their match doesn't decide anything for best of the generation. They only matched up in the same weight class in what seems to be the final few years of both of their respective careers, with Mayweather either in retirement or on vacation for much of that time and Pac's simply done more to rank higher. Clearly, I'd say. Although, I favour Mayweather in that match, H2H. For whatever that might be worth. In theory.

In blue:

Only in the way that Ali's rounds with Norton have the same effect on him. In other words, they don't, really.

 

Morales was clearly at the end of his career, years ago, when he's arguably beaten a top 5 fighter at 140 this year?

Prime: your post reeks of bias. Floyd cannot be considered higher than Pac based on the JMM fight. How decisive was he in the 1st Castillo fight and against an ageing Oscar?

 

And yet you scored it for Pacquiao.

No. Márquez won last night. You have well described why, whereas, technically, Márquez fought a disciplined counterpuncher's fight, visually, landed the most telling head and body shots and, morally, was the victor at the final bell.

The constant pivoting, tight guard, crisp varied counters and left jab leads frustrated Manny all night.

Who made his opponent look amateurish? Who got in the better blows? Who imposed his style? Who knew he had beat his man? Who does the world by majority agree today was the winner last night?

That man is Juan Manuel Márquez.

 

I thought Pacquaio edged him through dint of his much greater energy and output.

Marquez did make Pac look bad though - I feel Pac made himself look bad to some extent too however, through his inherent limitations.

As far as the more telling blows, perhaps Marquez landed the slightly more telling shots, whilst Pac landed more. I don't think Marquez's shots were as telling as is being made out though.

The crowd was clearly with Marquez, which emphasised his punches more, but Pac was doing a lot of work which wasn't being acknowledged by the crowd and commentators.

You felt Marquez won? Hey, I'm not going to argue it. I thought it was close enough.

Am I going to fool myself that Marquez put on a masterful display though? Come on now. Buddy Mcgirt would have shut him out :good