Do you consider Juan Manuel Marquez to be an ATG

Harsh assessment. In terms of footwork, positioning against an SP Marquez did put on masterclass. Some ATG WWs may have KO'd Marquez tonight, but that's beside the point for a 38yo lightweight/ex featherweight.

As for Pac skillset, his in fighting and defence are weaknesses in his game, although he does have good reactions

I'm surprised by people scoring the fight for Pacquaio, I don't see it, how many big clear Pacquaio rounds were there? Not many, 1, 10, 11, 12 could all easily be JMM rounds. I don't know how the 8th wasn't anything but a clear cut JMM round either. I need to watch it again though

Like he did against Whitaker, Lockridge and Randall? Pacquaio has allot in common with Meldrick Taylor except he has more power, how's that working out for Chavez? Marquez would match Chavez for skills and beat him for speed. Throwing bodypunches against Marquez sets up his counters btw. I think that'd be a close fight

 

Really good positioning yes, but it's not like he had to make complex adaptations or anything. Pac continued doing the same attacking moves with his silly headhunting time and over again.

Fair enough about the irrelevance of JMM against welters, though I think plenty of lightweights and junior welters would have their way with him too.

He takes a punch well, let's just say it's good for him that he can...

Don't think Pac had many clear rounds, but that's hardly a reason for not scoring the fight for him. Could some of the rounds I had scored for him have gone the either way or could the even rounds have gone to Marquez? Yes.

He fought Lockridge with an injured hand and still boxed to a clear UD against a very, very good opponent. Psychologically and physically he was past the apex against Randall.

Pacquiao and Taylor have speed in common and nothing else. Meldrick stood in with Chavez and banged. Pacquiao is simply not going to do that. How can he with his laughable in fighting? Lunging in against Chavez would work less well with Chavez than it does against Marquez. Chavez is even more punch resistant and digs to the body better than Marquez. I think Chavez would easily beat Pac.

As for Marquez, Chavez does just about everything better. Don't think Marquez is faster - they're about even in that department.

 

Yeah, why the ****? I originally stated Pac is not among the very greatest of all time and you called it hysteria.

It ****in' was. Barrera was on the way out, Pac on the way up. Don't try to rewrite history.

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:blood

You claim Pac has fought wars yet give no concession to Morales, who beat Pac while still a little fresher, yet was clearly not the same man one year later, right down to his muscle tone. Disagree if you must, but I also have the right to call bias on you.

The record will say Pac got the best of Morales and Barrera. Let's also see the context: the two Mexicans' best fights, their best days were prior to meeting PacMan. In fact, they took a whole lot out of each other before the world had heard the name Pacquiao.

You took issue with my saying Pacquiao is not among the very greatest of all time. Thank you for agreeing with me. (I know you just misread my post;-))

You agree again. Please remember, though, that both have for years been considered the two best pound-for-pound in the world and, again, for years, the impossible dream has been to get them together to decide who claims this mythical crown.

Well, I believe Márquez's victory over Pac last night is wider than than the gap between Ali and Norton in '76 and I also believe history will bear this out.

Norton cast no shadow on Ali. Ali was older than Norton. Pacquiao is much younger than Márquez, yet knows he never bested a man who Mayweather nearly shut out.

 

Also bare in mind Marquez is 38 in only his second fight above LW

Pacquaio probably boxes Chavez moving in and out, Chavez isn't going to take a step back so that suits Pacman as he doesn't have to find his opponent, I can see Pac landing first regularly. Meldrick is better inside, but you could argue he shouldn't have been fighting there anyway. His defence is also suspect. Chavez is obviously technically much the better fighter, Manny the much quicker and speed did give Chavez problems a few times. Delahoya wasn't very good technically and he bossed Chavez, albeit a 34yo Chavez. I'm not sure who'd win, I'd probably side with Chavez but I wouldn't want to put money on it

 

I don't think anyone, save you friend, bandied "masterful" about. I'd say it was a very disciplined display.

The old man did very well, against a fighter who, till the old man challenged him, was considered an unstoppable monster by the world at large. :good

 

Stop right here.

 

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Speaks for itself. :tired

 

Yeah, that's what I mostly take with me from this fight. Pac has n't really improved at all skill-wise. He showed the same flaws he did against Morales and in the earlier fights against Marquez. His technique is certainly nothing to write home about.

 

Cliche as it is, he'll probably ultimately be remembered as the Ken Norton type. A perfectly fine career overall, but nothing particularly special outside of the fact that a good amount of people felt he edged a trilogy with a genuine ATG in fights that he officially lost. His longevity and success across multiple weights might be enough to make him great, but if those Pacquiao fights are taken as they officially are - 0-2-1 for JMM - his resume just isn't up to par. Utterly fantastic fighter to watch though.

 

Yes, and I think that will go a long way. Classic performance last night.

 

Major props to marquez.

Old and well above his best weight, i didn't think he had a peformance like that left in him.Absolutely classic stuff.

It also bolsters my thoughts on manny not being by any means a special fighter above lightweight, but that's for another thread.