Do you consider Juan Manuel Marquez to be an ATG

The difference between Ken Norton and marquez in that analogy though, is it's quite clear Ali in his prime was the outright superior fighter.

It's a lot muddier with pac and Marquez.I tend to think both are on the same level at their best...yeah Manny had the better overall career, but it's more to do with how physically suitable he's been for operating(and retaining a good world class level) at many weightclasses, rather than him being a clearly more gifted fighter pegged back by an awkward stylistic conundrum.

 

Really surprised there is any debate on last nights fight. There were a lot of close rounds but even being generous towards Pacquiao the closest I could score it is 7 rounds to 5 rounds for Marquez, possible two drawn rounds, one early and one late.

Tragic. It is unbelievable that Marquez has not got a win from one of those 3 fights. And when you take into account what boxers get paid now I am actually hoping for Marquez-Pac 4 just so he can get a much better payday.

Couldn't make up my mind about Mayweather-Pac but if Marquez can time him so well fighting what I thought was a mayweather-esque style there can only be one winner.

Standard Bob Arum at the end, really the personification of all the ills in boxing.

 

I certainly think they're closer than Ali and Norton, but JMM's struggles with rather ordinary guys like Norwood and John, and his tight battle with a faded Barrera who Pac beat rather effortlessly, lead me to believe that Manny is the better fighter straight up, even if he's never going to be able to prove it with any kind of clarity in an actual fight. When Pac fights guys who supposedly aren't in his class, like most would say of Norwood or John in the case of Marquez, he thrashes them. I also believe even peak Ali would be made to look less than miraculous at times against the best Norton, but that's a bit off topic.

 

Yes no doubt. Hes a technical marval.

 

Manny would lose to Norwood too at FW and Marquez beat John, watch the fight. Manny has been kept away from movers and defensive types for a reason. Roach admitted Guzman would be a nightmare style for Pacquaio when fans were crying out for the fight

 

In yellow: :twisted:

In green: I agree, and don't think it's that off topic because it's an example that probably suits this situation as much as any, and it's not just my obsessive need to find a way to draw everything into a seventies heavyweight example. Although, I would say Marquez is obviously, as has been said, not as far from Pac as Norton to Ali, in an overall sense.

 

You have to consider him an ATG now. Better then Barrera and Morales. Now, I think he should just fight Morales and maybe try for a forth fight with Pacquiao.

 

He has Pac's measure. I think he could handle Morales and MAB but they ducked him. ATG is stretching it though. MAB got destroyed by PAC and his best fights were with the same guy, in which the fights were very close.

RJJ got KTFO by a few decent fighters. ATGs don't get KTFO very often.

 

What are you getting at with RJJ? I don't understand.

 

Would you consider Agapito Sanchez better than both Norwood and John?

 

what exactly makes him better than Barrera and Morales? Having a good style with Pacman? or being a 3 division titlest? Barkley had a good style for Hearns and actually beat him and was a 3 time champ also. Is he ATG?

 

He's great against technically deficient middleweights cuttings to make a lower weight.

In another era the Welters would be natural at the weight, and more technically proficient. The Middles the same.

I think his 'Welterweight' success (and just above) is due to the point I've highlighted. The bigger guys he's faced not only cannot deal with his speed like the smaller, nimbler fighters, but also spend more time cutting water out of their system than honing their skillsets.

Great fighter though.

 

Why do you paint it as if Marquez just "happens to have" the tools to beat Pacman? It's not some kind of luck factor that decides to grace him when he fights Pacquiao. Only a great fighter H2H could give him so much trouble on 3 different occasions because Pacquiao himself is great. He just practically dominated him at 38 way past his best natural weight in a way no welterweight at the time Pac was rising at 147 was able to do, and as a 9/1 favorite at that. That's greatness.

Resume wise, he's proven his skills against Juarez, Diaz, Casamayor, Katsidis, Barrera, Salido, and should have gotten wins against undefeated Chris John and Norwood. That looks like a pretty impressive resume to me, even without Pacquiao involved. You can pick apart the slightly past-it or historically low-ranked fighters in that list, but the truth is they were all at or near the top of their division when he fought them. Give me Pacquiao and Mayweather's resume and it's even easier to pick it apart in a similar way.

 

He's the best of the modern fab 4

Simple as that.

 

Marquez' resume shits on pacs and mays. pac and may are known as cherrypickers for a reason. marquez on the other hand has continued to take tough fight after tough fight after tough fight. while manny and may refuse to test themselves against each other, juan has been in with them both at THEIR weights - far above his own - and handled himself admirably