Where do you rank Floyd Patterson at heavyweight?

Discussion in 'Classic Boxing Forum' started by vipers, Nov 15, 2011.


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  1. choklab

    choklab cocoon of horror Full Member

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    I dont mind how most people were brain washed by the revised 1980s tyson chic that much of LIstons legacy is still riding on...

    Listons name was dirt for a lot of years in the books I grew up on in the late 1970's and I know sonny did not make a comeback after that point.
     
    choklab, Nov 16, 2011
    choklab, Nov 16, 2011
    #46
  2. McGrain

    McGrain Diamond Dog Staff Member

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    You clearly do mind, as you talk about little else and named "reducing the fake aura of Liston" as your reason for joining the forum.

    As someone who lived through the entire Tyson era, I can be confident in saying that Tyson's reign had almost zero impact upon the Liston perspective.

    Yeah, Ali wasn't in everyone's top 5 at HW in the 70's either. So what?

    I take it you don't approve of the similar revision of Dempsey's revised spot int he HW ranks, which sees him consistently ranked outside of the top 5?

    As you are confused:

    PRIME - A fighter that is in his prime.

    GREAT - A fighter who is great.


    In case this doesn't help, we recently had a GREAT performance from Juan Manuel Marquez who is past his PRIME.

    Between 1921 and 1926 we had many GREAT fighters from GREAT fighter Harry Greb, who was past his prime. In fact Greb built a GREAT resume in-spite of the fact that he was past his PRIME in these years alone.

    There are several thousand other examples, of course.
     
    McGrain, Nov 16, 2011
    McGrain, Nov 16, 2011
    #47
  3. choklab

    choklab cocoon of horror Full Member

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    Im still confused.

    sonny Liston was a great fighter. I think his prime was 1960-62 but was the best HW in the world from 62-64. Am I wrong? To be a great fighter you beat the best fighters and that what sonny did so he is a great fighter. I get that part.

    Not sure why you use greb as an example?

    Liston did not score a great win outside his prime did he?
     
    choklab, Nov 16, 2011
    choklab, Nov 16, 2011
    #48
  4. McGrain

    McGrain Diamond Dog Staff Member

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    Right or wrong, it's different to what you originally said, and what I originally picked you up on:

    Here you compare Liston's "great year" with Tyson's "prime years", crossing the streams in earnest when you say Tyson's "was considered a short prime."

    As with all trolls, talking to you is kind of exhausting but beating you is kind of fun, so...

    Is this why you pretend that Dempsey wasn't ducking Dempsey for his entire reign, or that Wills wasn't worth fighting, and regarded as worth fighting, for ALL of Dempsey's reign? Because that would mean was NOT a great champion?

    I take it you also think there is no case for Dempsey matching Greb inspite of Greb chasing him for his entire reign?

    Do you have similar thoughts about Sugar Ray Robinson (Burley), Roy Jones (DM), Mayweather (Pacquiao), etc. etc. etc., none of whom met the best fighters they spent eras with?


    To undermine your idea that Prime and Greatness are the same thing...

    ...although you seem to have entirely missed the point, though whether it is on purpose or through stupidity is uncertain.
     
    McGrain, Nov 16, 2011
    McGrain, Nov 16, 2011
    #49
  5. choklab

    choklab cocoon of horror Full Member

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    I honestly didn’t know how you remember all the things I have supposedly said. quite flattered that you do -and I am not winding you up.

    I often agree with a lot of your stuff.

    In light of not wanting to upset you I’m staying off the Dempsey-wills greb thing for now.

    getting back on topic, you have decided it is bizarre that anyone should rate a fighter closely to a champion he knocked out in one round yet you yourself rate Liston so close to Ali.

    I’m not saying that is bizarre. I don’t think that’s as funny as you find somebody rating LIston close to Patterson.
     
    choklab, Nov 16, 2011
    choklab, Nov 16, 2011
    #50
  6. McGrain

    McGrain Diamond Dog Staff Member

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    I keep a close eye on all the trolls and opinion posters on the forum - you shouldn't feel flattered.

    Additionally, the quote here is from this thread :lol: if i failed to remember it i'd be senile and if you only "supposedly" said them, you would be.


    I am completely lacking in asonishment.

    What of the other several other examples of fighters not meeting the best around, which you claim is crucial to any other fighter being great?

    The difference is apparent, and I don't rate Ali that closely to Liston at all. In fact, I rank Ali in the top 10 of all time, and Liston just inside the 100.

    That is an enormous difference, and I don't at all see them as being ranked as "close" like you do with Patterson and Liston, except in numerical terms at HW, which is a myopic way of looking at things given the weakness of that division.
     
    McGrain, Nov 16, 2011
    McGrain, Nov 16, 2011
    #51
  7. choklab

    choklab cocoon of horror Full Member

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    Im opinionated on the subject of boxing, maybe I shouild pull back a bit, but I am not here to wind people up. The fault I recognise in myself is wanting to fight the cause of champions I feel that are less regarded, I actualy like all the champions, its not personal. it kind of puts me off when people get carried away with an idea - as I am sure you think I have but thats fine.

    I only recently found out what a troll was and I have never intended to be one.



    I was talking about heavyweights.

    so why is it so funny?
     
    choklab, Nov 16, 2011
    choklab, Nov 16, 2011
    #52
  8. McGrain

    McGrain Diamond Dog Staff Member

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    Opinions are fine, ill-informed and biased ones get hammered around here.

    The only champion i've seen you really dig in for on here is Dempsey, perhaps the most lauded champion in history.



    Then take note:

    It is possible to rank two fighters from the same division in numerically close positions without seeing them as "close". That is, Liston can be ranked at #5 and Ali can be ranked at #2 and there can still be an enormous difference between them, and should be.

    You rank Lisotn and Patterson "close." That is what is different, that is what you haven't understood.
     
    McGrain, Nov 16, 2011
    McGrain, Nov 16, 2011
    #53
  9. choklab

    choklab cocoon of horror Full Member

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    yes, one time klompton got quite ratty with me about european fighters. I dont agree with you on the cleveland williams subject but its not personal.



    nah, I defend Henry cooper quite a bit, frank Bruno and Marciano quite a bit. the Dempsey thing I have got over. I got it into my head that people thought because they never fought wills was an uncrowned champion but its not the case, I learned from that. I used to get a bea in my bonnet about people thinking valdes being better than marciano just because they never fought, i now see it as valdes being a strong contender but not a world beater. I understand most people on here are knowledgable.

    I rate Dempsey where you rate liston, its not so outrageous. It was always more to do with the standard of the day and how I believe Dempsey was regarded and respecting how he was regarded at that time. If we measure him by today’s standards then hes not so good. But he should be measured by his time. I measure jack Johnson for his time also, hes not getting much love just now.





    how can I understand it if you only just said it now? i still rank liston and patterson close at HW.
     
    choklab, Nov 16, 2011
    choklab, Nov 16, 2011
    #54
  10. McGrain

    McGrain Diamond Dog Staff Member

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    Dempsey, Marciano and Bruno, eh? Yeah, you are really into your underated champions :lol:


    Only Seamus and one or two of the General forum invaders don't rate a fighter "by his time."




    I told you two posts ago, not just now.
     
    McGrain, Nov 16, 2011
    McGrain, Nov 16, 2011
    #55
  11. Nonito Smoak

    Nonito Smoak Ioka>Lomo, sorry my dudes Full Member

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    I have Patterson 16th.

    FLOYD PATTERSON Champion: 1956-1959, 4 defenses; 1960-1962, 2 defenses
    (55-8-1, KO 40)
    Notable Wins
    Yvon Durelle (47-6-1) UD 8 Ingemar Johansson (22-0) KO 5, KO 6
    Yvon Durelle (55-12-1) RTD 5 Tom McNeeley (23-0) KO 4
    Archie Moore (159-20-9) KO 5 Eddie Machen (47-4-2) PTS 12
    Pete Rademacher (debut) KO 6 George Chuvalo (29-8-2) UD 12
    Roy Harris (23-0) RTD 12 Oscar Bonavena (47-7-1) UD 10
    Notable Losses/Draw
    Joey Maxim (79-21-4) UD 8 Jerry Quarry (23-1-3) D 10
    Ingemar Johansson (21-0) TKO 3 Jerry Quarry (24-1-4) MD 12
    Sonny Liston (33-1) KO 1, KO 1 Jimmy Ellis (26-5) PTS 15
    Muhammad Ali (21-0) TKO 12 Muhammad Ali (38-1) TKO 7
     
    Nonito Smoak, Nov 16, 2011
    Nonito Smoak, Nov 16, 2011
    #56
  12. Nonito Smoak

    Nonito Smoak Ioka>Lomo, sorry my dudes Full Member

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    I actually have him at 14 exactly.

    List his 10 best wins and his losses. Not that that is how I judge fighters at all, but it's obvious his resume doesn't stack up with an easy 10 guys, probably 12.

    Those ahead of Liston for me: Louis, Ali, Johnson, Dempsey, Marciano, Foreman, Sullivan, Jeffries, Holmes, Frazier (these 10 easily), Tyson, Wills, Charles.
     
    Nonito Smoak, Nov 16, 2011
    Nonito Smoak, Nov 16, 2011
    #57
  13. lufcrazy

    lufcrazy requiescat in pace Full Member

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    All time I have Patterson 23 (Ali is 2,Liston is 12, Ingo is 37)

    By my cards Floyd beat everyone he fought bar Liston and Ali (the only men to best him) he rematched both in a tremendous show of courage.

    It should have been him vs frazier for the undisputed title IMO.

    H2H I have him 26 (Ali 3, Liston 2, Ingo 35)

    I pick Patterson to lose to the following in fantasy fights

    Ali, Louis, Johnson, Holmes, Marciano, Lewis, Tyson, Foreman, Frazier, Holyfield, Wlad, Dempsey, Langford, Charles, Liston, Wills, Walcott, Schmelling, Sullivan, Jeffries, Jackson, Tunney, Bowe, Vitali
     
    lufcrazy, Nov 16, 2011
    lufcrazy, Nov 16, 2011
    #58
  14. choklab

    choklab cocoon of horror Full Member

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    oh suzie wont like that...
     
    choklab, Nov 16, 2011
    choklab, Nov 16, 2011
    #59
  15. PetethePrince

    PetethePrince Slick & Redheaded Full Member

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    Sounds about right.

    I think having him outside your top 20 is harsh. It requires someone to do think little of the second tier of the golden age era. You've got to give him credit for those late 60's early 70's performances.
     
    PetethePrince, Nov 16, 2011
    PetethePrince, Nov 16, 2011
    #60
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