I think sonny could have given them all a good fight but it is difficult to imagine he could be the same fighter he was in 1960. Terrell bombed in that tournament and he had been the second best heavyweight in the world more recently than Liston.
Again, this is a paper analysis. What are you basing this idea that Liston was at his magical best in 1960 and was never that good again on?? You are basing it on your analysis that Liston beat more ranked men that year than any other. In other words, you genuinely think that beating the best translated into him being the best he could be. That doesn't make any sense. You yourself say we can't deduce enough from the Patterson film to decide if he were still at his peak, but you persistently behave like you think he wasn't. Meanwhile, Liston looks excellent out-boxing and hustling the #2 contender for ten rounds and actually looks to add technical aspects in his short outing against Westphal. But still, this bizarre fetish for 1960.
He seems to be under this illusion that Liston didn't fight the best of the era because he never took on Brian London, Dick Richardson, Henry Cooper, and Joe Erskine
few technical aspects were required against westphal, a brave but overmatched opponent who should not have been allowed near LIston. 1967 is a long time after Liston first looked a great fighter. I dont think sonny was active enough or had enough competitive rounds to prepare him for clay between the machen and clay fights to maintain 1960 form all that way. having said that I dont think liston "was never good again" at all. he was good to watch against henry clarke when he rebuilt later on. still a good fighter. even in the martin fight he showed heart and had his moments, martin was not unscathed himself. I realise angelo dundee had an agenda but in his book he felt Liston mesmerized the public with the Patterson wins, he felt Patterson was a great fighter but froze both times. It came across that those fights flattered sonny. dundee knew liston well, he was in the corner with besmanoff against Liston and was in Miami for listons fights there on his brothers shows. Its a point of view I would put some stock into.
Not one bit. Liston was the best of that era and would cream all three. there I said it. Liston would wipe them out as easily as dejohn, old man valdes and big cat williams because London, cooper erskine were the same level. why have you not included radmacher and harris i your latest snipe this time? does the tearm "gooftrooper" only aply to the british?
This is a mistake you make constantly. The quality of the opposition doesn't matter in understanding technical aspects. It doesn't matter how good the opponent was when we are appraising Liston's glove placement in defence. It is what it is. Keep beating that drum, it has no meaning.
No. Valdes, DeJohn, Big Cat were all massive punchers and 6'3 + 210lb. They actually posed a threat to Liston. Longon, Erkskine couldn't hurt a fly and were small. Cooper was a decent puncher.
It matters a great deal if you are or have ever been a fighter. Understanding technical aspects is a wonderful thing but wont mean much once you are beaten to the punch, outreached, over powered and made to pay at the moment before you have time to react as wesphal is in that film. If the fighter you are fighting is a lower level it is as good as having 3 extra seconds on him. Its a bag work out. You can set traps and punish him at will, you wont be made to pay for any mistakes because you wont be stretched enough to make one. Liston was far too good for that. I think he called wesphall "quick fall" thats how much he rated him. and yes liston was on his game against him but it is tough staying sharp if thats the opposition. It can make the next fight harder if you step up a notch. snipe at me all you want and appraise listons glove placement till the cows come home. Liston scored a great knock out against a guy who was not in a fair fight.
No it doesn't. Exposing under-nourished technical aspects comes with a higher grade of opposition, but technical breakdowns are possible no matter what the standard of the opponent. This is why Ricardo Lopez had so many fans amongst fighters despite the fact that at the time his level of competition was feeble. They loved his high glove placement and the way he knitted it in with his punching. You won't find a fighter, anywhere, who will go, "ah, he had excellent hand placement against that **** fighter, but when he has fights a GOOD fighter his hand placement will immediately become bad." Technical deductions drawn form viewing footage of boxers beating lesser opponents is not just valid, it happens all the time - in fact, it would be literally impossible to make technical deductions about great fighters in weak divisions or hot prospects if your myopic view were true. Now, a fighter might say, "his technical guard is fantastic, but against another great fighter, he may find himself being hit around the ears and throat rather than the gloves." This may be what is confusing you. You don't stop having perfect it's perfectly possible to draw technical deductions form bag work outs too You actually seem confused by your own arguments. I'm not "prasing listons glove placement until the cows come home", I'm just pointing out that your obsession with ranking peaks according to Boxrec is no healthier than picking your winner just by looking at Boxrec, both of which you are guilty of.
Technical breakdowns are all well and good but most boxing people will say "lets see him get away with that against somebody good". my view is my view. feel free to pick fault I wont take offence. I have told you before there is no right or wrong just popular and unpopular. boxing people have respected my views with some success at an albeit grass roots level. It wont mean I have anymore understanding than anyone else other than a point of view. boxing is not rocket science everyone is entitled to an opinion. you wont reinvent the wheel but I will let you play your little game.. boxrec is useful. its not the be all and end all I agree. boxers build up to a level by beating lesser fighters, thats how they achieve the rate of development required. They are prepared to reach prime in time for the big time, the key fights. they develop into a peak for key fights against other good rated fighters. a study of a record once familiar with the names is useful assessment of development.