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Pac vs JMM 3: Chuck Giampa's Views

Discussion in 'British Boxing Forum' started by SkillspayBills, Nov 21, 2011.

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SkillspayBills Mandanda Running E-Pen Full Member

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Taken from the GF (Posted by Kid Chocolate). A interesting insight into what judges look for or should be plus his own views on the fight.

A good read :good

Kid_Chocolate said: ↑

Well-respected, retired judge Chuck Giampa paid a visit to Zute's Boxing Talk last week to give his opinion of the scoring controversy in the aftermath of Pacquiao vs Marquez III.

Chuck Giampa, once one of the top boxing judges in the world, had an illustrious career and participated in many memorable championship fights including Holyfield vs Bowe and Holyfield vs Tyson II. He has served as a judge for over 120 world championship fights in addition to many regional and international title fights in Europe, Asia and South America.

Giampa was adamant that Juan Manuel Marquez beat Manny Pacquiao comfortably. His score for Pacquiao vs Marquez III differed quite a bit from the three official scorecards handed in November 12 as well as some, if not most, of the press reporters at ringside. And according to Giampa, even the score of 114-114 is unacceptable because it indicates Pacquiao did enough to retain his title.
Giampa scored the fight in favor of Juan Manuel Marquez 116-112.

Those who felt the fight was close or could have gone either way often suggest most fans do not know how to score a professional prize fight but Giampa was a seasoned judge, having scored some of the biggest fights in the last thirty years.

So why did Chuck see a different fight than the judges?

Pacquiao's Footwork
Manny Pacquiao, as usual, displayed excellent footwork in this bout. His footwork is exemplary and Giampa believes its possible some judges can be mesmerized by it. Giampa asserted he never let a fighter's superior footwork influence his judging. "The footwork doesn't mean anything (with regards to scoring a bout)," stated Giampa.

Chuck further explained a boxer's superior footwork only means something if he is using it to better position himself to land effective shots, counter punch and cut off the ring. If a fighter doesn't do those things, his footwork may be aesthetically-pleasing but should have to effect on judging.

"This is not Dancing with the Stars, this is boxing," said Chuck.

Effective Aggression
"The main thing you look at is effective aggressiveness," said Giampa. And while Manny Pacquiao was pressing the fight and was far more aggressive, Giampa believes Marquez's counter-punching limited Pacquiao to simply that - an aggressor.

Points are not awarded for aggression - They are awarded for effective aggression. According to Giampa, an effective aggressor would have been able to mitigate Marquez's counter-punching and land more punches of his own.
"When Manny did land a good shot, Marquez would come back with one or two more and a few times he stopped Pacquiao in his tracks... that was not effective aggression."

Work-Rate
Those who believe Pacquiao won will also cite his superior work-rate. According to official fight statistics from CompuBox, a program that counts and categorizes punches in boxing matches, the more aggressive Manny Pacquiao threw and landed more punches than Marquez and even connected on more power-shots (or non jabs).

While CompuBox metrics serve as good information and are nice to show to viewers, judges don't see them during the fight and, as a result, don't take them into consideration in scoring. In addition, CompuBox metrics - even if accurate - can be misleading.

"(Compu Box) Punch stats do not take into consideration what (punch) is effective." Chuck felt Marquez's' punches where "clearly more effective."

Only in amateur boxing, where a clean jab is worth as much as a hard punch that generates a knockdown, does landing more punches justify a win.

Champion's Benefit of the Doubt in Scoring
Lastly, many who argue Pacquiao deserved a win or draw will assert that a champion must be more decisively beaten to have his title taken from him and that the champion must be given the benefit of the doubt in rounds that are very close. Although its not an official rule, it's a philosophical notion that's infiltrated the sport almost as long as its existence.

Giampa, himself, disputed the old-age notion saying, "Technically he is not the champ anymore when the bell rings. He literally gives his belt up - They are fighting for the belt."

According to the famed former judge, the notion of giving the champion the benefit of the doubt when assessing close rounds was dropped in the 1950's and that all judges should know that the champion is, literally, not the champion anymore when the fight starts. "We (were) taught that in Nevada for years."
Chuck is very passionate about how judges should approach their work and was puzzled by the scoring of Pacquiao vs Marquez III.

"I honestly don't know what these judges were watching.... I will be interviewing the judges."

Chuck Giampa Today
Chuck now writes for The Ring. His articles, written from a judge's standpoint, focus on topics and subject matter that relate to officiating in the sport. He also holds seminars for judges on a consistent basis.

Giampa has appeared on Zute's Boxing Talk multiple times and has always given us straight talk. As an esteemed former judge with years of 'high- profile' fight experience, Giampa's opinion must be respected, even if challenged.
Click to expand...

SkillspayBills, Nov 21, 2011

#1

IntentionalButt FROM THE RIVER TO THE SEA Full Member

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Wait, Giampa retired? :shock: When?

Too bad he couldn't have been on the panel that night. :yep

He hit every nail flat on the head.

IntentionalButt, Nov 21, 2011

#2

slip&counter Gimme some X's and O's Full Member

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Thanks for sharing, mate.

You know there was this fantastic poster on this forum called Mandanda (pronounced Mondonda in French) who use to create brillient threads and share info like this. You remind me of him.

Oh, how i miss my good ole friend.

slip&counter, Nov 21, 2011

#3
Spearmint Rhino Guest

Really good piece.

Shame the judges on the night were way off, isn't it?

Spearmint Rhino, Nov 22, 2011

#4

dftaylor Writer, fanatic Full Member

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He writes about one thing that drives me nuts: scoring on workrate! Lederman is one of the worst for this. Outworking only counts if you’re landing and shutting the other guy down. If one guy lands 15 punches on the arms and sides, but the other lands five hard, accurate shots that send the other man scurrying backwards, I’m going to favour the man landing the harder shots.

dftaylor, Nov 22, 2011

#5
SkillspayBills Mandanda Running E-Pen Full Member

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IntentionalButt said: ↑

Wait, Giampa retired? :shock: When?

Too bad he couldn't have been on the panel that night. :yep

He hit every nail flat on the head.
Click to expand...

:deal

slip&counter said: ↑

Thanks for sharing, mate.

You know there was this fantastic poster on this forum called Mandanda (pronounced Mondonda in French) who use to create brillient threads and share info like this. You remind me of him.

Oh, how i miss my good ole friend.
Click to expand...

He will be back one day Slip, Oneday..:-(

SkillspayBills, Nov 22, 2011

#6
Zavi Guest

Same fight three times.... Marquez by 3 points.

I - Draw
II - Marquez by 2
III - Marquez by 3

Zavi, Nov 22, 2011

#7

Zavi Guest

It’s 2-1 / 2-1 / 1-2 to Marquez in compubox anyway lol.

Zavi, Nov 22, 2011

#8
GazOC Guest Star for Team Taff Full Member

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Agree with all the main points of the OP.

GazOC, Nov 22, 2011

#9
Zavi Guest

Amount missed should be a factor rather than the solely remaining 100%.

Zavi, Nov 22, 2011

#10
Zavi Guest

Pacquiao missed 402

Marquez missed 298

Zavi, Nov 22, 2011

#11

Zavi Guest

Anyway official is official.... unofficial tells what will happen next officially.

Zavi, Nov 22, 2011

#12
zulander Boxing Addict Full Member

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The footwork doesn't mean anything (with regards to scoring a bout)," stated Giampa.

is obviosuly a dig at harold lederman who was raving about paqs footwork whats odd is that in the next sentence he contradicts himself.

its an odd fight for me this. I love Marquez the way he fight, the shots he throws etc etc. Im not really a paq fan - but i had paq wining fairly clearly - MArquez just didnt throw or land enough especially in the first 3 rounds and the 12.

zulander, Nov 22, 2011

#13
Zavi Guest

This content is protected

Zavi, Nov 22, 2011

#14
dftaylor Writer, fanatic Full Member

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zulander said: ↑

The footwork doesn't mean anything (with regards to scoring a bout)," stated Giampa.

is obviosuly a dig at harold lederman who was raving about paqs footwork whats odd is that in the next sentence he contradicts himself.

Click to expand...

You need to work on your reading comprehension, I think:

Pacquiao's Footwork
Manny Pacquiao, as usual, displayed excellent footwork in this bout. His footwork is exemplary and Giampa believes its possible some judges can be mesmerized by it. Giampa asserted he never let a fighter's superior footwork influence his judging. "The footwork doesn't mean anything (with regards to scoring a bout)," stated Giampa.

Chuck further explained a boxer's superior footwork only means something if he is using it to better position himself to land effective shots, counter punch and cut off the ring. If a fighter doesn't do those things, his footwork may be aesthetically-pleasing but should have to effect on judging.
Click to expand...

He's entirely consistent:

Footwork should not influence your scoring
It only means something if it gets you in position to land effectively

So he makes a point and validates it.

dftaylor, Nov 22, 2011

#15

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