Has wlad done enough such that he's began a new universally accepted lineage?

Discussion in 'Classic Boxing Forum' started by lufcrazy, Dec 2, 2011.


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  1. lufcrazy

    lufcrazy requiescat in pace Full Member

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    I've been having a discussion via pm with a poster on here determining the legitimacy of wlad's hw championship.

    Some interesting points were raised by both parties and I'll list them out both positive and negative.

    1) Vitali was the reigning number 1 when he retired and has a strong claim himself after beating sanders, he is yet to be defeated since that victory.

    2) Vitali has ranked above everyone of Wlad's recent opponents barring Byrd who was top ranked only because of the retirement of Vitali and Lennox.

    3) Wlad has beaten byrd, peter, chagaev, iggy and haye whilst his brother is on record stating he doesn't challenge wlad's position at the top.

    4) Wlad and Vitali have a MUTUAL agreement never to fight.

    those key points raise some interesting questions imo:

    Does vitali have a stronger claim than wlad?

    Is wlad's claim worthy enough such that his successors are seen as true champions?

    Is it really neccessary for two brother's to compete against each other to determine a rightful king?

    *note* this isn't a discussion about the worth or necessity of being a lineal champion, it's merely discussing whether history will look back uopon wlad as creating a new lineage at some point between his fights with byrd and haye.
     
    lufcrazy, Dec 2, 2011
    lufcrazy, Dec 2, 2011
    #1
  2. Boxed Ears

    Boxed Ears this my daddy's account (RIP daddy) Full Member

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    When.discussing.this.I.often.feel.people.conveniently.flat.out.forget.Vitali.retired.for.years.while.Volo.was.tapping.arses.
    Anyone.else.notice.that?
     
    Boxed Ears, Dec 2, 2011
    Boxed Ears, Dec 2, 2011
    #2
  3. Daruf

    Daruf Boxing Addict Full Member

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    To me the linneage started after he beat Chagaev to unify the WBA with his IBF and WBO.
    Chagaev being the rightful belt holder at the time.

    All that being said i do think Vitali was and still is the better fighter.
     
    Daruf, Dec 2, 2011
    Daruf, Dec 2, 2011
    #3
  4. lufcrazy

    lufcrazy requiescat in pace Full Member

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    that's the issue with "the man that beat the man that beat.............the man that was universally regarded as champion" (aside from horrible decisions and no requirement to face worthy opposition [unless your called jofre]) there is always a dual lineage when a former champ returns to the ring.

    Like Frazier v Ali for example, a unification of lineages because you had Frazier's claim from beating ellis against ali's claim from beating liston.

    I think by and large, providing opposition is good and the decisions are correct, the lineal champ is the best out there.

    However the mid 90's was in a horrid state once bowe ducked lewis right up until lewis beat holyfield. that's 8 years of mess.

    Back to the topic at hand, what are your thoughts b.e.?

    with.use.of.spaces.if.possible.
     
    lufcrazy, Dec 2, 2011
    lufcrazy, Dec 2, 2011
    #4
  5. TheGreatA

    TheGreatA Boxing Junkie Full Member

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    It's tough to establish a lineage when there's a person around that a lot of people would pick to beat you up, but I'd say that Wladimir deserves to be recognized the champion. Vitali's title run has been more of a sideshow for me.
     
    TheGreatA, Dec 2, 2011
    TheGreatA, Dec 2, 2011
    #5
  6. Boxed Ears

    Boxed Ears this my daddy's account (RIP daddy) Full Member

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    You've.asked...too.much.:bart
     
    Boxed Ears, Dec 2, 2011
    Boxed Ears, Dec 2, 2011
    #6
  7. Garrus

    Garrus Big Boss 1935-2014 Full Member

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    ....
     
    Garrus, Dec 2, 2011
    Garrus, Dec 2, 2011
    #7
  8. Nay_Sayer

    Nay_Sayer On Rick James Status banned Full Member

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    I think we can bring some clarity to this conversation by putting things in their proper context. We can start by establishing a timeline of events.


    Having said that:
    • 03/08/2003 C Sanders KO2 W Klit
    • 10/30/2003 W Klit KO1 F Moli
    • 12/20/2003 W Klit KO4 D Nicholson
    • 04/10/2004 L Brewster KO5 W Klit
    • 04/24/2004 V Klit KO8 C Sanders
    • 10/02/2004 W Klit KO5 D Williamson
    • 12/11/2004 V Klit KO8 D Williams
    • *2005 V Klit retires*
    • 04/23/2005 W Klit KO4 E Castillo
    • 09/24/2005 W Klit UD12 S Peter
    • 04/22/2006 W Klit KO7 C Byrd
    • 11/11/2006 W Klit KO7 C Brock
    • 03/10/2007 W Klit KO2 R Austin
    • 07/07/2007 W Klit KO6 L Brewster
    • 02/23/2008 W Klit UD12 S Ibragimov
    • 10/11/2008 V Klit KO8 S Peter
    So, I guess the question that has to be answered is; Did Wlad do enough between the V Klit Williams and V Klit Peter fights to claim the linear HW title?
     
    Nay_Sayer, Dec 2, 2011
    Nay_Sayer, Dec 2, 2011
    #8
  9. The Mongoose

    The Mongoose I honor my bets banned

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    He's the Ring Champion..why not?

    I still find it funny when people say Ring #1 and #2 have to fight to establish a new lineage..yet they won't accept the Ring's #1/#3 exception and their crowned Champion. I mean either accept the Ring's decision or don't accept the Ring's rankings at all.
     
    The Mongoose, Dec 2, 2011
    The Mongoose, Dec 2, 2011
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  10. janitor

    janitor VIP Member Full Member

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    I would be happy to recognise him as the lineal champion myself. I feel that lineage has been established on far less.

    It will require general opinion to get behind the idea though!
     
    janitor, Dec 2, 2011
    janitor, Dec 2, 2011
    #10
  11. lufcrazy

    lufcrazy requiescat in pace Full Member

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    I don't believe i took anything you said out of context.

    I considered those key points to be the main aspects of the discussion.

    To answer your question just posed; i'd say by beating peter, byrd and iggy he was a clear number 1; the combination of vitali not wanting to challenge him and his subsequent victories over chag and haye have completely legitimised his claim imo.

    As janitor says, it will be history that ultimately decides.
     
    lufcrazy, Dec 2, 2011
    lufcrazy, Dec 2, 2011
    #11
  12. lufcrazy

    lufcrazy requiescat in pace Full Member

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    Ok you have a limit of 7 full stops, 1 gif and 2 of the worst emoticons you can find.

    Do your worst!
     
    lufcrazy, Dec 2, 2011
    lufcrazy, Dec 2, 2011
    #12
  13. janitor

    janitor VIP Member Full Member

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    In some ways, it is excruciating that he has not been recognised as the lineal champion.

    To find a contender that did so much on paper, and was not recognised as lineal, you have to go back to the days of the colour line!
     
    janitor, Dec 2, 2011
    janitor, Dec 2, 2011
    #13
  14. TBooze

    TBooze Obsessed with Boxing Full Member

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    I guess it shows how unpopular boxing is now a days. No one that matters cares anymore, that there has not been a Heavyweight World Champion for over seven years...

    We use to rule the sporting world, now pro wrestling gets a better press!
     
    TBooze, Dec 2, 2011
    TBooze, Dec 2, 2011
    #14
  15. Nay_Sayer

    Nay_Sayer On Rick James Status banned Full Member

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    I was just establishing the context for the sake of our discussion and to add clarity for everyone.

    There are some problems. First, during Vitali's retirement, Wlad never claims the WBC/BA belts. Sure Wlad beat Peter during this time but Peter had not established himself as a top HW when he lost to Wlad - and Wlad looked horrible in that fight. Peter would go on to beat James Toney twice then claim the WBC belt by KO'ing Oleg Maskev. Meanwhile Nicolai Valuev is defending the WBA belt. Wlad's best win during Vitali's retirement is over Chris Byrd - a guy Wlad had already beaten and had been showing signs of slowing down in gift decisions over McCline and Golota.

    I honestly don't believe the Chageav and Haye fights figure into the equation seeing as both occured *after* V Klit comes out of retirement and establishes himself as the #2 HW in the world.

    IMO, Wlad doesn't do enough with his wins over Peter, Byrd, and Ibragimov to establish a new lineage after Leiws' and Vitali's retirement.
     
    Nay_Sayer, Dec 2, 2011
    Nay_Sayer, Dec 2, 2011
    #15
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