Has wlad done enough such that he's began a new universally accepted lineage?

Discussion in 'Classic Boxing Forum' started by lufcrazy, Dec 2, 2011.


Page 4 of 24
  1. The Mongoose

    The Mongoose I honor my bets banned

    24,478
    128
    Aug 13, 2009
    Really, the key to being the "undisputed" Champion is can anyone really challenge/dispute your claim?

    During Foreman's lineal reign, you could make a case for Tyson and than Holyfield for having a better claim. Even if it wasn't lineal, they were without question the top dogs and men to beat.

    As of now, I really can't see anyone making a better claim than Wlad. Vitali is the only title holder who can but he was retired for 4 years and has only beat one title holder to Wlad's four. Vitali frankly doesn't have a pot to **** in on the matter. So with noone to challenge Wlad's claim as the Champion...I mean..what's the hold up.
     
    The Mongoose, Dec 5, 2011
    The Mongoose, Dec 5, 2011
    #46
  2. mr. magoo

    mr. magoo VIP Member Full Member

    51,494
    26,022
    Jan 3, 2007
    Wlad is the champ and there's nothing anyone can say about it... I don't care for his opposition, fighting style, low frequency at defending, etc... But it is what it is.....
     
    mr. magoo, Dec 5, 2011
    mr. magoo, Dec 5, 2011
    #47
  3. lufcrazy

    lufcrazy requiescat in pace Full Member

    82,092
    22,182
    Sep 15, 2009
    This is exactly how I see it; the one man who could challenge him doesn't want to. I think history will regard this as the start of the next lineage, maybe even going back to the victory over ibragimov.
     
    lufcrazy, Dec 5, 2011
    lufcrazy, Dec 5, 2011
    #48
  4. lufcrazy

    lufcrazy requiescat in pace Full Member

    82,092
    22,182
    Sep 15, 2009
    How I see that is I had holyfield beating moorer, but he then retired due to heart problems. Moorer's next match was against big george. The winner of that is the best out there for me.

    I do try to stick to a succession when it comes to being the best out there, but every so often claims just get pissed down the wind for instance in 36 Thil loses his claim when steele is on top form highlighted by a repeat victory over risko.

    Speaking of succession, how do you see the lhw picture? Because Erdei both officially left the division and retired after beating fragomeni. Leaves it nicely open for the dawson-pascal fight right?
     
    lufcrazy, Dec 5, 2011
    lufcrazy, Dec 5, 2011
    #49
  5. TBooze

    TBooze Obsessed with Boxing Full Member

    25,495
    2,153
    Oct 22, 2006
    Has Wlad done enough, that he has begun a new universally accepted lineage?

    Well by definition the moment anyone disagrees, universally he has not...

    The same with the term Undisputed Champion.

    Boxing has never had an Undisputed Champion, because the moment he fights an opponent for this crown, the Championship is being disputed...

    Matter of fact silliness aside; I think in this era, where lineage has been lost, the lexicon needs to be:

    Has Wladimir Klitschko or any other Heavyweight, produced enough in the ring and gained enough support, to claim the title "Generally recognized, Heavyweight Champion of the World"?
     
    TBooze, Dec 5, 2011
    TBooze, Dec 5, 2011
    #50
  6. Stonehands89

    Stonehands89 Boxing Junkie Full Member

    10,776
    317
    Dec 12, 2005
    My take is different, more technical. Thil lost to Apostoli in New York in '37. The NYSAC made both sign a document acknowledging that it wasn't a title bout even though they made weight. Why? Because they recognized Steele. Apostoli beats Thil ...and goes right Steele. What does Steele do? He won't fight him unless he comes in over 160. Apostoli wins the non-title bout and Steele won't give him a title shot.


    Yep. Pascal, Hopkins, Dawson...

    The champ right now is Dawson though I think the ref made a bad call. I'm not overruling it and I sure as hell don't accept SillyMan's and the WBC's "ruling." The California commission is the rightful authority here and they will decide on December 13th whether Hopkins claim is valid. I'm hoping they do.
     
    Stonehands89, Dec 5, 2011
    Stonehands89, Dec 5, 2011
    #51
  7. Ravishing Rick

    Ravishing Rick $.02 *Soutside slugger* Full Member

    329
    5
    Sep 17, 2011
    Wow. you giving a modern fighter his just due:yikes
     
    Ravishing Rick, Dec 5, 2011
    Ravishing Rick, Dec 5, 2011
    #52
  8. Stonehands89

    Stonehands89 Boxing Junkie Full Member

    10,776
    317
    Dec 12, 2005
    You have a rather large brain. Great points and I would agree with the "generally recognized" title.

    All he's got to do is fight his damn brother (and get paid for once doing it). I don't make excuses for what I see as a sissy decision. What is this --boxing or the Klitschko family reunion?!
     
    Stonehands89, Dec 5, 2011
    Stonehands89, Dec 5, 2011
    #53
  9. lufcrazy

    lufcrazy requiescat in pace Full Member

    82,092
    22,182
    Sep 15, 2009
    here's my take:

    Mickey Walker: (june)1927-(january)1931 [vacates claim whilst dundee beats harvey]

    Vince Dundee: (january)1931-(july)1931 [loses to thil]
    Marcel Thil: (july)1931-(july)1936 [loses claim when steele beats risko]

    Freddie Steele: (july)1936-(january)1938 [loses to apostli]
    Fred Apostoli: (january)1938-(february)1938 [loses to corbett III]
    Young Corbett III: (february)1938-(november)1938 [loses to apostoli]
    Fred Apostoli: (november)1938-(october)1939 [loses to garcia]
    Ceferino Garcia: (october)1939-(march)1940 [loses to armstrong]
    Henry Armstrong: (march)1940-(may)1940 [vacates his claim whilst ovelrin beats garcia]


    Good so you accept erdei's voluntary retirement, that's fine by me.

    How do you see bowe ducking lewis? does that not translate as an effective vacating of his belt to you?

    You'll leave the fate of your succession depending upon the csac even though you already think it's a bad call?
     
    lufcrazy, Dec 5, 2011
    lufcrazy, Dec 5, 2011
    #54
  10. MAG1965

    MAG1965 Loyal Member banned

    34,796
    66
    Dec 1, 2008
    what I think lacks about the Klitchkos is not their fault. I think they are too big for everyone else they fight, and the division is also terrible now. It is so bad, the only excitement is guys moving up like Adamek and Haye etc.
     
    MAG1965, Dec 5, 2011
    MAG1965, Dec 5, 2011
    #55
  11. Stonehands89

    Stonehands89 Boxing Junkie Full Member

    10,776
    317
    Dec 12, 2005
    Mickey officially vacated in June 1931.

    I go with Gorilla Jones since he took it on a tournament. Then Thil then Apostoli.

    No more than Zale, Lesnevich, Cochrane, and Cerdan ducking Moore, Robinson and half of Murderers' Row!

    I don't like when a champions fights inferior opposition but I'm not about to strip them decades later.

    Got to man, I ain't the king of boxing and I ain't no petty tyrant like Jose "sullies the water" man.
     
    Stonehands89, Dec 5, 2011
    Stonehands89, Dec 5, 2011
    #56
  12. lufcrazy

    lufcrazy requiescat in pace Full Member

    82,092
    22,182
    Sep 15, 2009
    He did but until dundee beat harvey I don't think there was anyone worthy of taking his place. For me his claim doesn't evaporate the minute he retires, it just fizzles out until the best claimant can be found imo.

    All of those I mark down aside from cerdan who lost his next fight anyways.

    Cochrane is one of the worst long standing champions in recorded history. His claim is so shite it's unreal.

    It's not on us to strip, that's what the belts are for :)

    Seems a bit of a deus ex but each to their own I suppose.

    Speaking of claims, i'm watching the benn mcclelland fight right now and i'll be fukd if benn aint the premiere smw in the aftermath of that fight.
     
    lufcrazy, Dec 5, 2011
    lufcrazy, Dec 5, 2011
    #57
  13. Stonehands89

    Stonehands89 Boxing Junkie Full Member

    10,776
    317
    Dec 12, 2005
    Got it.

    He beat Zivic who beat Armstrong, so his isn't a claim but the real thing. How do you control for "styles makes fights"?

    Don't make me get all Joe Pesci on you.

    You'd throw up on your shoes if you saw my SMW list. I hate it too, but rules are rules!
     
    Stonehands89, Dec 5, 2011
    Stonehands89, Dec 5, 2011
    #58
  14. lufcrazy

    lufcrazy requiescat in pace Full Member

    82,092
    22,182
    Sep 15, 2009
    Zivic had already lost before fighting red. He had perhaps 1 ww fight in 6 years. Ridiculous to think he's one of the longest reigning ww champs.

    Haha was looking for a reaction.

    You go the park-girard route? Then credit joe when he beats kessler?
     
    lufcrazy, Dec 5, 2011
    lufcrazy, Dec 5, 2011
    #59
  15. Nay_Sayer

    Nay_Sayer On Rick James Status banned Full Member

    15,707
    503
    May 25, 2009
    Lol...
     
    Nay_Sayer, Dec 6, 2011
    Nay_Sayer, Dec 6, 2011
    #60
Page 4 of 24