Marquez Defeating Pacquiao DOES NOT Indicate Pac Loses to Floyd- A Technical Summary

Vitor Belfort · Dec 15, 2011

Leon said: ↑

No, he's not.

He couldn't even finish a chubby Mexican he knocked down 3 times in one round.

Cotto(e) was around for way too long despite having nothing left.

He couldn't stop punching bag margoe wheres pass prime Shane could.
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:rofl
cotto;s fight should have been stopped in the 9th round but stupid ass ref and cotto's corner let their boy get more beating
Margocheato's career is over cuz once again the stupid ass ref and corner let it continue:deal

KarlBrandt · Dec 15, 2011

Vitor Belfort said: ↑

These guys do:rofl

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You mean these bums

Vitor Belfort · Dec 15, 2011

Smokin' Joe said: ↑

Those guys aren't elite level. Juan and Mayweather are. :good
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it has nothing to do with that, the point is once pac gets you hurt like corley did to mayweather, it was a matter of time til pac knocks you out:thumbsup

KarlBrandt · Dec 15, 2011

Vitor Belfort said: ↑

:rofl
cotto;s fight should have been stopped in the 9th round but stupid ass ref and cotto's corner let their boy get more beating
Margocheato's career is over cuz once again the stupid ass ref and corner let it continue:deal
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Cotto & Margarito = Catchweight fights

MichiganWarrior · Dec 15, 2011

Hey you guys Bobozzo says Mayweather isnt as fluid a counter puncher in the pocket as Marquez

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I for one agree!!!

Smokin' Joe · Dec 15, 2011

Vitor Belfort said: ↑

it has nothing to do with that, the point is once pac gets you hurt like corley did to mayweather, it was a matter of time til pac knocks you out:thumbsup
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Not really. Mosley was hurt, went 12. Margarito was hurt, went 12. Cotto was hurt many times and the Ref only stopped it late in the 12th out of compassion. Even Diaz, who was 'hurt' for most of the fight was only stopped late on due to accumulation.

If you're talking about ruthless finishes after having someone hurt, Morales 3 and Hatton are the only two you can mention against high level opposition really. I really wouldn't say he's one of the best finishers in the game.

Phat_Ass_Dude · Dec 15, 2011

mancat said: ↑

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ef8HA3_eDog&feature=uploademail
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I love it...at :26

"KNOCK IT OFF, WE KNOW WHAT WOULD HAPPEN!!!"

:deal

Bogotazo · Dec 15, 2011

MichiganWarrior said: ↑

What the **** are you talking about? ARe you saying MArquez is more fluid then Mayweather? WAtch the Katsidis or Juan Diaz fights. Marquez eats tons of punches. Look at his face after each one of those fights. You actually believe Marquez is more fluid at close range then Mayweather who if he gets hit its an event. And we can count on one hand the number of times he's been made to even bleed. :rofl

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Not really.

Marquez in the video is eating punches whenever he takes a step backwards. And when he does throw punches, he is set the vast majority of the time. Compare that to Mayweather who can throw punches while moving backwards on his toes. Look when Marquez gets pinned against the ropes by Juan Diaz, he is eating punches.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2p1QJ0ZEpp8

Now compare that to Mayweather vs the greatest lightweight of Floyd's era

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vUhLnuhe7KA&feature=related

Or more recent example

Floyd vs Baldomir

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vACl6PyCVWI

Or Floyd vs Hatton which I posted above

All things being equal Mayweather is a far superior technician to Marquez. The only real advantage Marquez has over Mayweather is combination punching. Which gets Marquez into trouble at times where he gets knocked down because he over commits to a series of punches.

All in all, Pacquiao and Marquez are mid-range fighters. Take either out of this range, and they're weaknesses are glaring. Mayweather can fight on the inside, at mid-range, or at long range with his leaping left hook and his jab off the back foot.

Againt Ortiz, Floyd circled to Ortiz left at times, boxed off the back foot at times, or some times stalked Ortiz and cut off the ring. Floyd is a virtuoso fighter. Unless Pacquiao gets lucky with his punches or Floyd begins to slip, he has no chance against Floyd.
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Showing a video of Floyd ducking a punch against Ortiz doesn't prove anything. Showing him counter a poorly conditioned lightweight and move to a position that he can't continue to fire from does not prove anything concerning Pacquiao, who is completely different in his offense to Marquez. Your videos fail to show at all that Mayweather takes away his opponent's punching angles laterally while restarting his own offense a moment later the way Marquez does against a mobile aggressor. Showing him jump in and out against Corrales isn't really correlative to anything about fighting Pacquiao, especially considering Floyd's style has changed, nor does it compare to Marquez's style of fighting in the pocket, where he usually stops his man while taking some punishment (he actually adjusted far better against Katsidis than Diaz and barely got hit past round 3.) But they are more like swarmers; Pacquiao is not a swarmer and to turn him laterally you have to duck under his punches while in range, while fainting, while coming forward, while throwing combinations, while going backwards and forwards in a way Floyd isn't habituated to. Again, he may beat Pacquiao, but it won't be the same way Marquez did because they're styles are completely different. That's the entire point of the thread.

Fighting a swarmer against the ropes is not the same thing as turning your opponent in the middle of the ring, so comparing them both fighting against Katsidis or Hatton against the ropes is irrelevant.

Mayweather has the superior defense to Marquez, but he does not have the better lateral movement, and he does not have the offense to counter in the pocket in the center of the ring by turning his opponent like someone like Hopkins would. Please post videos and images that are actually relevant to the arguments if you're going to continue to post in my thread. Show a video of Floyd fighting like Marquez and jumping back and forth against an opponent to keep him guessing and bouncing on his toes to sway and set up his shots. Otherwise, we can do without the long stretches of text and imaging.

MichiganWarrior · Dec 16, 2011

Bogotazo said: ↑

Showing a video of Floyd ducking a punch against Ortiz doesn't prove anything. Showing him counter a poorly conditioned lightweight and move to a position that he can't continue to fire from does not prove anything concerning Pacquiao, who is completely different in his offense to Marquez. Your videos fail to show at all that Mayweather takes away his opponent's punching angles laterally while restarting his own offense a moment later the way Marquez does against a mobile aggressor. Showing him jump in and out against Corrales isn't really correlative to anything about fighting Pacquiao, especially considering Floyd's style has changed, nor does it compare to Marquez's style of fighting in the pocket, where he usually stops his man while taking some punishment (he actually adjusted far better against Katsidis than Diaz and barely got hit past round 3.) But they are more like swarmers; Pacquiao is not a swarmer and to turn him laterally you have to duck under his punches while in range, while fainting, while coming forward, while throwing combinations, while going backwards and forwards in a way Floyd isn't habituated to. Again, he may beat Pacquiao, but it won't be the same way Marquez did because they're styles are completely different. That's the entire point of the thread.

Fighting a swarmer against the ropes is not the same thing as turning your opponent in the middle of the ring, so comparing them both fighting against Katsidis or Hatton against the ropes is irrelevant.

Mayweather has the superior defense to Marquez, but he does not have the better lateral movement, and he does not have the offense to counter in the pocket in the center of the ring by turning his opponent like someone like Hopkins would. Please post videos and images that are actually relevant to the arguments if you're going to continue to post in my thread. Show a video of Floyd fighting like Marquez and jumping back and forth against an opponent to keep him guessing and bouncing on his toes to sway and set up his shots. Otherwise, we can do without the long stretches of text and imaging.
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Bobozo. How is this not taking an opponents punching angle away?

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Btw, thats Castillo moron. And he's boxing off the back foot. Leaping in with check hooks while keeping Castillo at a distance with his jab and his footwork.

Seriously do you watch any boxing?

PBF24 · Dec 18, 2011

I agree with some of the points that TS has made, but it's not as complicated as he tries to made it sound when it comes to Floyd's footwork movement. Manny attack and cut the ring off differently than all of Floyd's past opponents. Have you ever notice how Manny tries to change his movement even when he's coming forward, not only does that help him, it also help his opponents to pivots away to find better angles themselves. This is why Manny isn't a pure pressure Boxer because pressure Boxers won't allow you to have any space to pivots away from their attacks, Manny likes to use range distance to operate, and that's going to work in Floyd's favo as well.

bald_head_slick · Dec 18, 2011

Keep flinging poo *******s. Eventually something will stick.

PBF24 · Dec 18, 2011

[ame]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uorJow8_zQU&feature=related[/ame]

Just watch how he was constantly pivoted around against Ortiz. When Ortiz attacked him straight forward, he moved backward in a straight line, then he got his usual left hook off, then move to an another angle. I know Ortiz caught him in the fourth round, but let's not act like Marquez hasn't been caught more than Floyd has. At the end of the day, Floyd would adapt to Manny's movement and pivots around with him. The only time Floyd constantly backing up in a straight line is when his opponents[usually great pressure fighters that knows how to cut the ring off] closed in range and leaves him little to no room to pivots out to another angle.

At 2:27, Ortiz caught him with a nice straight left, and then Ortiz tried to hit him again with it at 2:30, but Floyd blocked it. I respect TS's ability to breakdown certain strategies and habits, but he sure it made sound like Floyd is inferior to Marquez at making adjustments and adapting quickly.

pahapoisu · Dec 18, 2011

PBF24 said: ↑

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uorJow8_zQU&feature=related

Just watch how he was constantly pivoted around against Ortiz. When Ortiz attacked him straight forward, he moved backward in a straight line, then he got his usual left hook off, then move to an another angle. I know Ortiz caught him in the fourth round, but let's not act like Marquez hasn't been caught more than Floyd has. At the end of the day, Floyd would adapt to Manny's movement and pivots around with him. The only time Floyd constantly backing up in a straight line is when his opponents[usually great pressure fighters that knows how to cut the ring off] closed in range and leaves him little to no room to pivots out to another angle.

At 2:27, Ortiz caught him with a nice straight left, and then Ortiz tried to hit him again with it at 2:30, but Floyd blocked it. I respect TS's ability to breakdown certain strategies and habits, but he sure it made sound like Floyd is inferior to Marquez at making adjustments and adapting quickly.
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:good
Remember the Mosley jab to the stomach and right hand to the face combination ? Missed it once, landed it once and from there on it was left hook to the face by Floyd.

BingM3 · Dec 18, 2011

Bogotazo said: ↑

This is a bit awkward for me as a Marquez fan, but hear me out. I feel that people are discrediting Marquez's win by equating him to Mayweather and basically generalizing with the concept that Manny would get beaten by any elite counter-puncher, including Floyd, by default. I have to say that people are harshly ignoring the nuances of the game by continually equating Marquez and Floyd without looking at the subtle but absolutely key aspects of their tactical profiles.

They are completely different fighters who set up their counters completely differently.

First off, the key for Marquez against Pacquiao has always been his constant lateral movement. Not only does he constantly sway at a low center of gravity while rotating away from Pac's left, but he pivots out of range and changes the angle after landing an attack, or even in the middle of an exchange, to completely confuse Pacquiao and take away his ability to take the initiative with his amazingly swift footwork. He does this so much so that in the second half of the fight, he caught Pacquiao with a left hook pretty much behind the head because of how he was able to laterally shift away from an oncoming Manny.

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Mayweather on the other hand is a more conventional "slick" counter-puncher who relies on his control of distance to anticipate and neutralize his opponent. While he's brilliant in reading his opponent and measuring his own punches against their own, he usually does this either going straight backwards or straight forwards, with efficient footwork. He has habituated himself to fighting in straight lines in order to land his favorite punches; lead right hands, pull-counters, jabs to the body, counter or lead left hooks, or counter-right uppercuts when swarmed. But one thing Mayweather almost never shows is the type of lateral movement Marquez shows. I can point to the De La Hoya fight (which I thought he won) for evidence of this habit. De La Hoya, while still game, had an offensive gameplan that relied a lot on mere feints and swarms of activity to back Floyd up, and he usually did so with no problem. Even after Mayweather adjusted to his rhythm and started winning rounds, he hardly ever looked impressive and was backing up consistently without ever shifting towards a laterally-minded gameplan. Wouldn't that have made things easier for him instead of constantly giving up the center and having to retreat to the ropes to counter before escaping? Someone with the style of Hopkins (as in VS Pavlik), for example, would prefer such tactics, and Floyd seems to prefer seeing his opponent right in front of him, positioning himself right in front.

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This comfort zone does not appear to be a preferred strategy for someone who can rotate so quickly and match Floyd speed for speed with plenty of pop behind it.
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This leads into my second point, which is that Marquez's movement allows him to get Pacquiao on the inside and punish him. As an in-the-pocket counter-puncher, Marquez can duck under and find himself body-to-body with pacquiao and take advantage of his unpolished inside game. Uppercuts, combinations, and even spots of controlled aggression (before pivoting out) are something that he can do because of his relatively similar size to Pacquiao.

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Now, while people point to Mayweather's reach giving Pacquiao issues, I don't believe he'll be able to use it to control Pacquiao if he shows his regular movement. Floyd's accurate and reflexive, but his defensive stance by nature anchors his back foot to the canvas, and allows someone as fleet-footed as Pacquiao to change the punching angle and capitalize for an offensive opportunity.

Fighting in straight lines is not the way to beat Pacquiao; you have to take away the punching angle, and I don't think at all that Floyd can circle as well as he can back-pedal.

On top of all of this is tempo. While Marquez was able to control pace from time to time, he was still able to fluidly exchange with Pacquiao and see the angles in order to time the better shots while rolling with Pac's own. Mayweather, as skilled and tough and intuitive as he is, has not shown this quality in abundance. The times he's been hurt actually, have been times he's over-committed to his own punches (Corely, Judah, Mosley). He can adjust brilliantly round-to-round, but as controversial as it may sound, I feel he lacks this sort of intangible fluidity Marquez has in his approach. Floyd can counter for 3 rounds and then come forward for 7, while Marquez can switch between momentary aggressor and counter-puncher several times within the same round.

Mayweather's great ability still gives him a logical avenue for victory- but don't think for a second that Pacquiao's own skills and physical gifts are a puzzle easily solved by a majority of elite boxers that necessarily bunch both Mayweather and Marquez together.

Styles (NOT labels) make fights, and Marquez and Mayweather are nearly night and day when it comes to applying their craft.
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For the record PAC won vs JMM, change your title

PBF24 · Dec 18, 2011

Bump........

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