Marquez Defeating Pacquiao DOES NOT Indicate Pac Loses to Floyd- A Technical Summary

Bee KeepZ · Dec 19, 2011

Bogotazo said: ↑

Well, there were several times Pacquiao clocked JMM with a left before switching to the right, and though it looks like he's attacking in straight lines, he's often shuffling to stick his foot on the outside and align his left, or moving left to walk his opponents into a left hand unwittingly. Cutting off the ring won't necessarily be a problem because Floyd isn't really a "mover". He's not flat-footed, but he's not really a "mover" either. Besides, if Floyd doesn't move laterally, Pacquiao's best bet is probably to catch him in the center of the ring; he's not a traditional swarmer and trying to wild out on him against the ropes isn't his style, nor is it a good idea IMO. But even if Pac doesn't change the angle, we've seen Mayweather get hit by lefts down the pipe more consistently than any other punch.

Here, despite the fact Shane is undeniably shot to ****, this one moment of a subtle back-pedal is not dissimilar to the reflexive habits of Mayweather anticipating an offensive. Manny gets his foot on the outside coming in after gauging Shane's movement straight backwards, and fires.

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Although I had JMM winning clearly, this is one of the few moments Pacquiao was able to time him and then change the angle in his favor. I believe the way Mayweather prefers to move straight back instead of laterally, we'd see more of these moments.

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In earlier posts I also mentioned how it's actually easier for Pacquiao to weave under a taller man's punches, whereas with a similarly sized Marquez who was ducking under Pacquiao and coming up from below and then over the top, there was no escape in sight. The reach may be a challenge, but if Floyd isn't comfortable using it as he backs up while Pacquiao rushes him, it may not play as big as role as we might have thought. If you look at the blitzing combination Floyd throws at Ortiz in the 4th, while it's effective, it seems to lose some of it's sting as Ortiz does a half-assed bob and weave under it; Pac's even shorter and more elastic. Floyd's lengthy jab is very accurate, but if you're not practically on the complete right of Manny Pacquiao (as Marquez often sets himself up to be) and throw more than one (Floyd prefers single shots), it can be countered by the same counter Pac's been using for years, posted above.

If Floyd takes control coming forward, it doesn't look good for Manny, but he always has the game-changer in his left hand and I think they'll prepare for the relatively identifiable patterns in Mayweather's controlled and efficient offense.
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BS, Pacquiao was timing Marquez with right hands all night. He was even shooting a right hook in, timing Marquez, as Marquez was trying to throw a left hook.

Leon · Dec 19, 2011

Gander Tasco said: ↑

^ ok first of all pulling straight back is an error inboxing and its not the right strategy against pacquiao. You want to move laterally, not straight back. What do you think Floyd is going to do jab jab, and bounce backward all night. He's going to plant his feet at some point, and he cant be moving backwards while hes throwing a punch, he's gotta be offensive to. PAcquiiao also has great feints which can get Floyd to lock up , and he does fall for them all the time.

Floyd is habituated to fighting in the pocket, hes not a distance fighter and never has been. I've never seen him fight that type of fight against southpaws, ever.
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[ame]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6ITb_ZU65JM[/ame]

Does Floyd often move back in straight lines? Yep. Can he afford to? Yep. Why?

1) He can fight off the ropes
2) He can clinch
3) He knows how to flick the jab out there into their face to prevent them from gaining enough ground. JMM used this technique with great success on emmanuel.

Gander Tasco · Dec 19, 2011

^ 1. Floyd can fight off the ropes but hes not gonna fight pacquiao off of him, mainly because Floyd doesnt let his hands go and pacquiao will eat up single punches to land his own.

2. Floyd can clinch but if I was fighting Pacquao I wouldnt be trying to clinch him and risk getting clocked, I'd be stepping to the side and staying out of range. Floyd doesn't fight like that though.

3. I dont see Floyd stopping Pac from gaining ground when A ) Floyd consistently invites opponents inside and B) he doesnt let his hands go with anything more then a single punch, two if your lucky. That's not gonna keep Pacquiao off him, at least not enough to keep Floyd out of danger. Pac has an iron jaw and will soak up shots to land his own, and that's where combinations / lateral movement comes into play. Marquez can keep Pac off of him because he throws combinations; the 2nd or 3rd shot negates the return shots from Pacquiao.

see this gif:

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Either that or Marquez will step the side, and move out of the way and get back out of range.. whereas Floyd likes to stay there in the pocket.

btw here's somebody who had the idea of running straight back from Pac:

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Whipdatass · Dec 19, 2011

Bogotazo said: ↑

This is a bit awkward for me as a Marquez fan, but hear me out. I feel that people are discrediting Marquez's win by equating him to Mayweather and basically generalizing with the concept that Manny would get beaten by any elite counter-puncher, including Floyd, by default. I have to say that people are harshly ignoring the nuances of the game by continually equating Marquez and Floyd without looking at the subtle but absolutely key aspects of their tactical profiles.

They are completely different fighters who set up their counters completely differently.

First off, the key for Marquez against Pacquiao has always been his constant lateral movement. Not only does he constantly sway at a low center of gravity while rotating away from Pac's left, but he pivots out of range and changes the angle after landing an attack, or even in the middle of an exchange, to completely confuse Pacquiao and take away his ability to take the initiative with his amazingly swift footwork. He does this so much so that in the second half of the fight, he caught Pacquiao with a left hook pretty much behind the head because of how he was able to laterally shift away from an oncoming Manny.

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Mayweather on the other hand is a more conventional "slick" counter-puncher who relies on his control of distance to anticipate and neutralize his opponent. While he's brilliant in reading his opponent and measuring his own punches against their own, he usually does this either going straight backwards or straight forwards, with efficient footwork. He has habituated himself to fighting in straight lines in order to land his favorite punches; lead right hands, pull-counters, jabs to the body, counter or lead left hooks, or counter-right uppercuts when swarmed. But one thing Mayweather almost never shows is the type of lateral movement Marquez shows. I can point to the De La Hoya fight (which I thought he won) for evidence of this habit. De La Hoya, while still game, had an offensive gameplan that relied a lot on mere feints and swarms of activity to back Floyd up, and he usually did so with no problem. Even after Mayweather adjusted to his rhythm and started winning rounds, he hardly ever looked impressive and was backing up consistently without ever shifting towards a laterally-minded gameplan. Wouldn't that have made things easier for him instead of constantly giving up the center and having to retreat to the ropes to counter before escaping? Someone with the style of Hopkins (as in VS Pavlik), for example, would prefer such tactics, and Floyd seems to prefer seeing his opponent right in front of him, positioning himself right in front.

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This comfort zone does not appear to be a preferred strategy for someone who can rotate so quickly and match Floyd speed for speed with plenty of pop behind it.
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This leads into my second point, which is that Marquez's movement allows him to get Pacquiao on the inside and punish him. As an in-the-pocket counter-puncher, Marquez can duck under and find himself body-to-body with pacquiao and take advantage of his unpolished inside game. Uppercuts, combinations, and even spots of controlled aggression (before pivoting out) are something that he can do because of his relatively similar size to Pacquiao.

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Now, while people point to Mayweather's reach giving Pacquiao issues, I don't believe he'll be able to use it to control Pacquiao if he shows his regular movement. Floyd's accurate and reflexive, but his defensive stance by nature anchors his back foot to the canvas, and allows someone as fleet-footed as Pacquiao to change the punching angle and capitalize for an offensive opportunity.

Fighting in straight lines is not the way to beat Pacquiao; you have to take away the punching angle, and I don't think at all that Floyd can circle as well as he can back-pedal.

On top of all of this is tempo. While Marquez was able to control pace from time to time, he was still able to fluidly exchange with Pacquiao and see the angles in order to time the better shots while rolling with Pac's own. Mayweather, as skilled and tough and intuitive as he is, has not shown this quality in abundance. The times he's been hurt actually, have been times he's over-committed to his own punches (Corely, Judah, Mosley). He can adjust brilliantly round-to-round, but as controversial as it may sound, I feel he lacks this sort of intangible fluidity Marquez has in his approach. Floyd can counter for 3 rounds and then come forward for 7, while Marquez can switch between momentary aggressor and counter-puncher several times within the same round.

Mayweather's great ability still gives him a logical avenue for victory- but don't think for a second that Pacquiao's own skills and physical gifts are a puzzle easily solved by a majority of elite boxers that necessarily bunch both Mayweather and Marquez together.

Styles (NOT labels) make fights, and Marquez and Mayweather are nearly night and day when it comes to applying their craft.
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I don't know where you got this idea about what you think Floyd fans are thinking. Floyd fans knew way before Pacquiao became known that Floyd would beat Pacquiaos ass even if Pacquiao never fought Marquez should they ever meet up one day.

sprika2 · Dec 19, 2011

when did JMM defeated PAC?

Whipdatass · Dec 19, 2011

Pacquiao will not be fighting and old Shane, Marquez, Cotto, Clottey or Margarito. Floyd is the strongest welterweight in the world. He's fast, offensive, defensive. Who the **** believes Pacquiao will land anything on Floyd without Floyd doing ****? Are we to believe that Floyd will be scared to punch with Pacquiao once Pacquiao opens up? ****ing hilarious! Only Top Rank and Golden Boy fighters are tailormade fighters for Pacquiao, not Floyd.

Whipdatass · Dec 19, 2011

sprika2 said: ↑

when did JMM defeated PAC?
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Exactly my friend. When?

Boom_Boom · Dec 19, 2011

This thread is flawed because JMM never defeated Pacquiao.

KarlBrandt · Dec 19, 2011

Pacquiao himself said that his fights with Marquez are difficult because Marquez is a counter-puncher,and what is Mayweather?

A counter-puncher too end of story,27 pages for this is ridiculous.

Chris85 · Dec 19, 2011

Lapu-lapu said: ↑

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YOU MISSED THE PART WHERE JMM DELIBERATELY STEPPED ON PAC'S FOOT TO ANCHOR HIM, GREAT!
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LOL he even looked down where pac's foot is before stomping on it. Look at the angle of his foot before landing it on pac's haha

MoJoGoodie · Dec 20, 2011

Gander Tasco said: ↑

^ 1. Floyd can fight off the ropes but hes not gonna fight pacquiao off of him, mainly because Floyd doesnt let his hands go and pacquiao will eat up single punches to land his own.

2. Floyd can clinch but if I was fighting Pacquao I wouldnt be trying to clinch him and risk getting clocked, I'd be stepping to the side and staying out of range. Floyd doesn't fight like that though.

3. I dont see Floyd stopping Pac from gaining ground when A ) Floyd consistently invites opponents inside and B) he doesnt let his hands go with anything more then a single punch, two if your lucky. That's not gonna keep Pacquiao off him, at least not enough to keep Floyd out of danger. Pac has an iron jaw and will soak up shots to land his own, and that's where combinations / lateral movement comes into play. Marquez can keep Pac off of him because he throws combinations; the 2nd or 3rd shot negates the return shots from Pacquiao.

see this gif:

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Either that or Marquez will step the side, and move out of the way and get back out of range.. whereas Floyd likes to stay there in the pocket.

btw here's somebody who had the idea of running straight back from Pac:

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the fact that you think pac's just going to soak up punches is just a terrible bases

Symphenyceo · Dec 20, 2011

Gander Tasco said: ↑

How the **** do you go from this:

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To this:

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When have you ever seen Floyd land a counter like that? In fact that counter combination Marquez threw was more impressive than anything Floyd has ever done. He hit Pacquiao while he was in the air for **** sake.

I don't see anything in those Floyd gifs that would cause Pac trouble mainly because he's only throwing one punch at time, he's relatively stationary and Pac will jump all over him. As the thread starter has explained so elequently Marquez style is simply a tougher matchup then FLoyd's is. Floyd's defensive habits actually play into Pacquiao's hands.

He does have a reach advantage but he's so prone to fighting in the pocket that it won't make a big difference. He's not going to deter PAcquiao from coming in either by only throwing one punch , and not taking the risk of letting his hands go in the moments where he'll need to. He's goes stationary on defense too and that will give Pacquiao all the confidence and opportunity he needs to land punches.
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The bolded parts are complete nonsense. I seriously dont even know when to start. "a counter shot is better than anything floyd has EVER DONE"....get real....Floyd knocked Hatton down with what was basically an arm punch going backwards and pivoting out...And the thing about that shot was it was timed inbetween Hatton's shot with accuracy.

AnthonyW · Dec 20, 2011

Lapu-lapu said: ↑

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YOU MISSED THE PART WHERE JMM DELIBERATELY STEPPED ON PAC'S FOOT TO ANCHOR HIM, GREAT!
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Chris85 said: ↑

LOL he even looked down where pac's foot is before stomping on it. Look at the angle of his foot before landing it on pac's haha
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Everyone conveniently ignored my thread on this...

[url]http://www.eastsideboxing.com/forum/showthread.php?t=359485[/url]

Symphenyceo · Dec 20, 2011

Gander Tasco said: ↑

^ ok first of all pulling straight back is an error in boxing and its not the right strategy against pacquiao. You want to move to laterally, not straight back. What do you think Floyd is going to do just jab jab, and bounce backward all night? He's going to have to plant his feet at some point, and he cant be moving backwards all time, he's gotta be offensive to. Pacquiao can let him come to him and Floyd tends to be aggressive against lefties anyway. Pac also has great feints which can get Floyd to lock up , and he does fall for them all the time.

Floyd is habituated to fighting in the pocket, hes not a distance fighter and never has been. His defensive style requires him to plant his feet, it makes him more of a pocket fighter, ala James Toney. I've never seen Floyd fight the type of fight that would best nullify pacquiao's style, the way Marquez does.
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Floyd can jab all night if he wants, if he does what is Pac going to do? Jab back? please he doesnt have one of those. Jabs, feints etc...all make pac reset. Pac has to be in rythm to be effective. His movements (especially his head movement is predictable because he just bobs it back and forth..left to right..)

Pac does the same 2 feints all the time and they involve him hoping(no no) its not hard to guage it. As a matter of fact pac sometimes hops out of range using it.

Floyd isnt a distance fighter? Really? So how is his timimg so good?

Floyd does not need his feet to be planted for him to use his defense, thats silly..you arent consider one of the best defensive fighters ever if you can only defend one way. Floyd has multiple defenses.

Pulling back is an error in boxing. But so is crossing your feet, over extending on shots and not closing the distance with a jab and instead just hop in. All of these are part of Pac's game.

And Pac better stop dropping his left hand everytime he throws his right. I thought he'd have corrected that by now but i guess its habit.

JMM lands double right hands on Pac FFS

Floyd's reach wont matter?smh.....

klimting · Dec 20, 2011

icanmanifest said: ↑

Floyd doesn't get hit clean.. and wild ass punches won't be hitting him clean either. It will be a TOTAL technical mismatch and not even a very exciting fight.
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despite a brilliant, well thought out thread by the OP, i have to agree with you mate.
if it ever did get made it will be a one sided affair with floyd fighting cautious and winning rounds (but not exciting the fans).
same as most of his fights really. i think this, not because marquez can handle manny, but because manny's style will not do well against floyd's style (this isn't from a previous 'blueprint' as no one like pac has fought floyd before) but this is how i imagine it.

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