Thoughts on Carlos Ortiz????

he was a tough ****er who didn't really know how to quit.

proud, hard and active. always coming ahead and firing hard blows to head and body, not always pretty but definately in the know, in control.

 

It seems a rare occurence to me that the depth and immensity of his record properly receives the right praise. From the late mid-fifties when he started to hit world class up until late '71 when he came out of retirement, there's practically zero padding in it.

Wins over great fighters: Loi, Locche (questionable draw), Ramos x2, Laguna x2, Brown, Elorde x2. That's nine wins over upper echelon HOF standard opponents. Then there are all the top level contenders like Vaillant, Busso, Bizzarro, Torres, Takayama, Kosaka, Lane, Lopes, Rossi, Matthews etc. It's daft.

He might be just about the most complete fighter ever when you look at how he fought and the number of different styles he neutralized and repelled during those three reigns: punchers, speedsters, defensive wizards, technicians, swarmers. The lot. I often hear people call him 'workmanlike', and it always seems a bit condescending; almost like he was some neolithic toiler, although I suppose he's one of those fighters who can appear unremarkable on first viewing if you don't know what you're looking for.

He had subtle, unflashy feet that moved well in any direction, were rarely out of position and gave him good balance; every notable punch including a sharp, versatile jab and heavy straight right; excellent timing, punch selection and judgment of distance; good power and solid punching technique; cagey, almost minimalistic upper body movement and feinting ability; good combination punching skills and finishing ability/killer instinct; top level ability at every range; tremendous physical strength, stamina, durability and ability on the inside.

On top of all that - although he wasn't especially quick in a physical sense - he was physically a huge lightweight who had terrific speed of thought and was one of the all time great ring generals when it came to making an opponent dance to his beat, whichever way he went about doing it. Watch how he makes Old Bones Brown, a natural outfighter, lead and expend energy, jabbing and counter punching when most expected him to purely try to wear the older, smaller man out. And then watch him use a similar yet slightly different approach to diffuse an aggressive big hitter like Battling Torres, starting slowly and warily but gradually upping his work rate and physically asserting himself as Torres runs out of diesel. That one's on youtube. Then as a complete counterpoint, watch him cut off the ring to pin down, feint open and physically dominate Laguna in the last fight of their trilogy, especially after Laguna had had the temerity to outspeed him first time around when Ortiz was a bit off the boil. They all show his ability to adjust in order to go about his business when faced with a certain type of obstacle, and they certainly show how versatile he was. He also put Ramos and Elorde down in dominant fashion second time around after they'd both troubled him in their initial encounters (although Elorde was faded by the time of their rematch).

All of which leads to another thing that amazes me about him - his ability to remain so iron-fisted, consistent and dominant during such a strong, challenging era when he wasn't even particularly dedicated. He was a known lazy ******* and lover of the high life who struggled to motivate himself half of the time, something that was partially responsible for being upset first by Laguna and then later by Teo Cruz when the fire had almost completely gone out. Double-edged sword obviously as it put mileage on the clock that could have been avoided and meant that he could be upset on occasions.

The one who gave him the most grief though was Duilio Loi, when Ortiz supposedly hadn't quite hit his peak. He was able to match Ortiz for both intelligence and strength on the inside, subsequently outworking him twice in Italy after Ortiz had edged their initial scrap in San Francisco. There are bits of evidence to suggest that Loi deserved to win all three, though they were all very close fights by the look of it.

A magnificent fighter by any standard; his reign at lightweight is better than Duran's imo and maybe even challenges the tenures of both Leonard and Gans, though I'm happy to hear otherwise. Lightweight is the deepest division ever and Ortiz is nailed in the top 6 or 7, maybe as high as the top 3. It'd make my day to see people ranking him top of the pile.

 

He even did quite well against Buchanan as a John C Reilly drunkard lookalike.Obviously only in shape and sharp enough to fight well for 4-5 rounds before his legs started to go, but he acquited himself well and retired before starting to take a beating.

 

He ws one of the canniest, best rounded smartest pro's that ever lived. He was a great, great lightweight as well as junior lightweight champion.

 

Truly great Lightweight who would have held his own in any era, top ten unquestionably!

 

Agreed.

He was like a cross between Jake LaMotta and Riccardo Lopez.

 

and John c. Reilly

 

:twisted:

 

Tin_Ribs has been pulling out the big guns lately. Very nice.

 

Take a look at Ortiz against Len Matthews, a heavy-handed, undefeated Philly lightweight being touted as a young SRR:

[ame]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GeeT44STeq4[/ame]

 

another old fight that shows the HARD mindset of these old fighters.

people are subject to their times and circumstances - and those times just demanded more of people. That alone is why they were better fighters...

today that would have been stopped about 10-15 seconds sooner at least.

 

Jose Torres rated him #1.

 

More often than not it would have been stopped earlier then as well.