ketchel vs hagler......

The primary sources don't mention such an occurence. So that's proof that it didn't happen. What primary sources say it DID happen? Can you provide any? The burden of proof is on the person or persons who claim that it did. Ketchel never claimed it did, no. His manager didn't either to the best of my knowledge.

 

I didn't think they were overly big at all :think

 

Indeed you do, stuff that was written YEARS after the fact by people who weren't even there. The stuff I'm using was written at the time, at the location and by the people who were there.

Which would you say is the more credible source?

 

Just for reference, this debate seems to have digressed into a debate that took place 9 months ago between Klompton, Ketchel and myself. I'll repost here for reference:

http://www.eastsideboxing.com/forum/showthread.php?t=302950&page=14

 

The burden of proof on the person or persons that were there... are dead. So they have no burden whatsoever to worry about. One poster put up an article a few pages back and it says Papke ignored the handshake and hit Ketchel instead. I'll except that... who I'm I to argue. When none of us were born or thought of.

 

Once again I ask you- What primary sources say it DID happen? Can you provide any?

 

So show me a statement made by a single one of them, while they were alive of course, saying that it happened.

You can't.

 

I asked you first Surf.

 

Who says it "NEVER" happen.

 

That's not what it says. It says he "sailed into". Sailed into means he was swinging. No mention of a crippling punch landing....UNTIL over a minute of fighting.

What further proof do you need?

 

Right here. Primary source. Read the first column, 6th paragraph. Ketchel landed the first punch:

http://chroniclingamerica.loc.gov/l...eq-6/;words=Ketchel+Ketchels+Ketchell+KETCHEL


Case closed

 

Just for the record, fight reports tend to report punches that DID happen, not punches that DIDN'T. That's why you won't find a primary source report stating that Papke DIDN'T land a sucker punch on Ketchel (but it does mention him trying and missing, so maybe I'm wrong)

 

Since you don't see the word cheap-shot or Sucker-Punch on any newspapers or from the press. You've come to the conclusion that it didn't happen. Thats cool

Since I don't see any articles or news reports saying beyond doubt the "sucker punch" never happened or took place etc. Then I'll except the non-primary sources that say different.

 

Actually, I don't see that ANY punch landed when Ketch extended his hand. It says clearly that KETCHEL landed the first punch.

Why is this so hard for you to accept? It's right there- "KETCHEL LANDED THE FIRST PUNCH". Is the source wrong? The writer lying perhaps?

 

The case is still open. Are you certain this Jay Davidson was actually at the fight. What other primary sources doesn't mention it happening. That's one..so where are the others to support Jay Davidson?

Regardless he didn't say it did or didn't happen. So no case closed.

It looks like a good article though. I never could understand why they made the letters so small.