Joe Louis WAS THE BEST PFP FIGHTER OF ALL TIME

I don't even rank Joe Louis as being #1 in his own weight class, so for me that basically excludes him as #1 p4p.

 

Ali's legacy is a little blown out of proportion isn't it?

Just think, "Greatest Athlete of the 20th Century". Is he even among the top ten in his own sport? :think Even the best in his own division of that sport? :think

 

You can construct any number of arguments either "for" or "against" him holding that position, but I think the consensus of most people is that he is the best of his own division.

 

Thanks, Magoo. :good

Actually asking for Burt's take more than raising my own opinion.

 

Oh, I get your reasoning. You are saying that you don't even rank Joe Louis #1 in his weight class ,so that excludes him from being #1 P4P...Right ?
Then by having Ali #1 HW, by your reasoning he would be #1 P4P fighter ???...atsch
P.S. I don't regard Louis best P4P fighter over the smaller Harry Greb, Ray Robinson, Sam Langford, Bob Fitz, because they had to tackle much heavier opponents than Joe Louis did.

 

Not looking to have a go with Burt, but I think he's getting carried away with some of the assertions he's throwing out there... Calling Ali the " Darling" of his day while labeling Louis as the "slayer" of his sounds suspiciously biased in favor Louis. Especially considering that Ali was a man who defeated at least three all time greats who were heavily favored to beat him, and two of which came when he was past it... Burt alludes to the notion that Ali was favored in close fights, yet doesn't mention that Louis on occasion got away with a possible gift or two himself... Louis was actually loved by all groups of fight fans and on many different levels, whereas Ali was often viewed as a loud mouth and political trouble maker in his time. Some fight fans and experts never forgave Ali for calling Louis an uncle tom ( and perhaps rightfully so.).. But be that as it may, who was really the "darling?"

In any case, I rate Ali higher both legacy wise and head to head. His best opponents were by far and above better than Louis's best.... The level of depth outside of their best wins is debatable but I still favor Ali in that category as well. As for Eddie Futch picking Joe to beat Muhammad, while I'd take that with a grain of salt... Ali was 4-2 against the best two men Futch was training at that time....

 

So, when the consensus of the boxing writers poll in 1950, chose Jack Dempsey as the best fighter til then, is considered bogus by posters today who get their jollys by tearing his legacy down, but the consensus of a MAGAZINE calls Ali" the athlete of the century", their opinion has validity, but not the opinions of several hundred boxing experts in 1950...Hmmmm!

 

Yep

Nope...

What's to say that I'm calling either of them as p4p best?

 

I wasn't commenting on any magazine calling Ali " the athlete of the century." And in fact, other men from other sports such as Babe Ruth and Michael Jordan have been rated above him by various other factions.. I was commenting on him being the consensus greatest " HEAVYWEIGHT BOXER" of all time, and I think there are many who agree with that position... Obviously you don't, which is fine, but that doesn't mean that it isn't popular opinion...

 

Tell me M, in what fights was the prime Joe Louis" given a gift or two"?
In his prime NEVER. When he didn't ko a Tommy Farr, it was a shock, but not a GIFT...I have said this many times. I feel Ali fought OVERALL the best contenders. No doubt. But he did not dominate a Norton 3 times, a Doug Jones [ who gave Clay great troubles] . But I believe that Eddie Futch, Ray Arcel and others who saw Joe Louis at his best,and their opinions carry a heck of a lot of more weight than you or I. Cheers...

 

I have them at 1-2 where HW is concerned, and they can flip spots at any particular time. Ali has a higher level of opposition, but so does Benny Leonard over Roberto Duran @ Lightweight and I still consider him the best there all-time. Many agree, Many don't, Some would say Leonard is superior @ LW, but Duran's better P4P. Others would say No, Joe Gans over both. It's all clusters of subjective opinion. It's interesting.

Louis was fundamental perfection in the ring though, I'll give him that. One of the top five punchers of all-time, for or at any weight.

 

What are you talking about?

Robinson is almost always thought of as the greatest P4P fighter of all time. Not Ali. Maybe random people who have never seen more than a couple fights at a bar or at a family gathering or something might hold that opinion. Maybe a boxing fan would hold that opinion, but I'm not even sure I've heard anyone on ESB make the claim that Ali is the greatest of all time.

 

Did you not see "HEAVYWEIGHT" all in caps???

 

Based on resume, i say no.

 

I think its reasonable to have Joe Louis as the greatest fighter of all time pound for pound.
some people tend to downgrade the great heavyweights in those lists simply because heavyweights are more popular among the casual mainstream audience.
heavyweights get enough credit on their own lists

joe louis's record speaks for itself. 11 years as champ, undisputed. 25 defences. people look at his challengers and say he didnt beat enough "great" fighters but Joe louis was so great and dominant that he didnt give many a chance of becoming a "great" fighter.
his reign is the epitome of greatness