Battle of the green greats: Charles vs Robinson; December 1942

Robinson did not routinely compete above 150 pounds until 1947, by which time Burley was winding down (fighting just twice in '47, once in '48, and twice in '49). Charley was aiming for a shot at Zale in early '47, but Lytell II shot him down, and the more exciting and compelling Graziano then got a second shot at Tony.

Nobody seriously disputes that SRR ducked Burley, but that fight wouldn't have helped Ray one iota, and I think he was perfectly sensible in avoiding an extremely dangerous opponent who was significantly heavier. It's not the egregious omission that Wills never getting a shot at Willard or Dempsey is.

 

Luf, you are correct. I recall at that time that Burley was considered "persona non grata " by Robinson.. Columnists wrote about this "avoidance of Burley ",by Robinson then. Ray Robinson and his braintrust George Gainsford, took no unecessary risks for very little gain, visa Charley Burley...

 

Robby wasn't fighting for posthumous posterity and future revisionism, but for the present. Yes, it would have been one of the greatest victories of his career, but Burley and most of the rest of Murderer's Row weren't on Nat Fleischer's NYC based radar. (In the 1957 Ring Record Book, Burley and company only appear on the records of their then better known opponents, like subsequent champions Charles and Moore.) Guys like Robinson, Zale, Soose and LaMotta came out of the amateur ranks already stars, familiar to moviegoers who had seen their amateur footage. Burley, like his 1940's Row compadres, was simply not that big a name at the time, but toiled in relative obscurity, as the dearth of footage reveals. Robby had terrific press, yet still couldn't get a prewar shot at Angott.

Of course, but they weren't thinking of us here in 2012 (and only LaMotta and Bivins have stuck around long enough to care).

I blame Jack Johnson for this. If he hadn't been so "In your face!" with his conduct, Wills, Godfrey, Gains and others might have gotten shots long before Louis. Wills would have become champion at Willard's expense.

Well known quote. Saying he was too pretty isn't the same as saying he didn't think he could beat Charley, and JohnGarfield (who knew Robby) believes Ray would have taken Burley. I agree, but he wouldn't have gained much from it at the time, and might have paid a tremendous price in the process. If the end justifies the means, Robinson made the correct call. Are we to live for the history we won't experience?

Burley, on the other hand, stood to gain tremendously from confronting such a highly recognized star, something to pull him from relative obscurity into the bright lights of major venues. Charley was pragmatically candid about the situation, admitting that if their roles were reversed he'd have wanted no part of Ray. (How many common opponents do they have? A quick check of their records shows Georgie Abrams, but I'm not delving into further scrutiny just now.)

 

That's a pretty bold statement - Robinson was only stopped ONCE in about 200 fights, and that was due to heat exhaustion under some very unique and bizarre circumstances.

By contrast, Charles did not appear to be particularly sturdy at or around 160 pounds - he was down against Ken Overlin, who was no puncher, he was down numerous times against both Jimmy Bivins and Lloyd Marshall, and was also reportedly in big trouble against Jose Basora.


Having said that, I would probably lean towards Charles in this - his raw boxing skills combined with his huge weight advantage would likely be too much for a fighter that hadn't even finished growing into his own weight class yet.

 

Agreed.

Robinson was still campaigning for a shot at the WW title at a time when Burley was already well established as MW. The fact that Robinson gets criticized for "ducking" Burley under those circumstances is reflective of -
1. his dominance within his own weight class, and
2. the higher, and often unfair standard to which he was, and is held.

 

Yes, i know that.

As well as Robinson being dropped against not the hardest puncher Lamotta.

Not saying the bout would've definitely ended by KO though.

Just personally not seeing welterweight Robinson winning against big middleweight Charles let alone stopping him.

And can at least envision hard sharp punching big middleweight Charles with comparable skillset stopping welterweight Robinson.

That's about it.

 

at the end of 1942, ezzard charles was rated as the #3 light-heavyweight contender. and he'd actually KO'd the #2 contender Anton christoforidid at the beginning of that year. above him were jimmy bivins and the champion gus lesnevich (who he would have been favored to beat). i think he would have been favored to beat the middleweight champion tony zale too.
he was beating Joey maxim, then a heavyweight, at the end of 1942.

obviously charles wasn't just bigger than robinson. he was great.

the only problem i see in this match for Ezz is can he make 160 pounds and perform ?

 

Gus Lesnevich was a good champion.

Charles was beating several good middleweights and light-heavyweights at this time. guys who were rated above Lamotta.
robinson was fighting mostly welterweights.

 

I wouldn't say Robinson is 'definitely the most skilled fighter ever', although he's obviously right up there.