Lloyd Marshall v Billy Conn?

Yah welcome.

 

Everyone is quick to acknowledge that Ali was deprived of his best years during that 3 year interval in which he was deposed...they should do the same for Conn. I agree with you that Conn would have been a dominating force at lightheavy and may have even given Louis another good fight if there was no WW2. He certainly would have nothing to fear from any lightheavyweight for years to come.

 

I've seen that and there's footage around of Marshall when he came over to Europe too. Still a bit difficult to build a full portrait of the man. Agree on him being relaxed, quite aggressive from what I've seen, leading with power shots, like an aggressive version of Roy Jones almost, his right looked very good from recollection

 

i've always been of the mind messers johnny ray was a bit rough on billy during his teens and that he coudda been brought along into a better prime

during his mid to late 20s...but of course the war erupted.

 

That was the Pittsburgh way, my friend. It was a "sink or swim" fight scene they had over there. Look at George Chip's or just about any other Pitt battler's record from 1900-1950. The trainers wanted to know what you were made of early and didn't waste their time if you didn't have "the stuff" :good

 

Right but stuff like the Rankins fight while only a teen doesn't lead to a proper prime for a fighter.

u wanna full blossoming during late 20s

 

Lloyd Marshall was scheduled to fight Bert Lytell in January, 1948 -10 rounds at MSG on the undercard of Maxim-Tandberg.

It didn't happen, but I wish the hell it did. Lytell fought Bolo Blackwood instead.

 

I can't say that you're wrong, at least not from a logical standpoint. But consider:

Charley Burley (2 years, 17 bouts) vs Zivic (7 years, 79 bouts)
Burley (3 years, 29 bouts) vs. Holman Williams (7 years, 75 bouts)
Burley (2 years, 21 bouts) vs Cocoa Kid (9 years, 128 bouts)
Burley (3 yrs, 24 bouts) vs Jimmy Leto (4 yrs, 105 bouts)

Sammy Angott (4 months, 5 bouts) vs. Jackie Wilson (6 yrs, 53 bouts)
Angott (2 yrs, 36 bouts) vs Everett Rightmire (5 yrs, 79 bouts)
Angott (3 yrs, 47 bouts) vs Wesley Ramey (9 yrs, 143 bouts)

Jackie Wilson (2 yrs, 18 bouts) vs Johnny Datto (11 yrs, 149 bouts)
Wilson (3 yrs, 23 bouts) vs Wee Willie Davies (8 yrs, 151 bouts)
Wilson (4 yrs, 33 bouts) vs Midget Wolgast (8 yrs, 113 bouts)

Teddy Yarosz (10 months, 20 fights) vs Young Rudy (7 yrs, 93 bouts)

Wee Willie Davies (9 mos, 17 bouts) vs Corp. Izzy Schwartz (4 yrs, 45 bouts) Rematched 2 mos later
Davies (1 yr, 26 bouts) vs Black Bill (5 yrs, 76 bouts)

Billy Soose (4 mos, 5 bouts) vs Al Quaill (4 yrs, 41 bouts)
Soose (8 mos, 11 bouts) vs Charley Burley (2 yrs, 23 bouts)

Harry Greb had been pro for just over a year, had only 25 fights and was thrown in with 67-fight veteran Joe Borrell, Terry Martin (close to 100 fights), and a young Billy Miske.

George Chip was a relative pup when he was tossed in with Jack Dillon (several bouts), Leo Houck, Buck Crouse, Jeff Smith and Tom McMahon--all tough assignments.

We already know what Billy Conn had to face.

Consider also that from 1910 to 1950 Pittsburgh could boast of having a world champion/titleist in ever single weight division except flyweight (where Wee Willie Davies was avoided like the plague by Frankie Genaro) and heavyweight. Light-heavy (Conn), 5 middleweight champs(Klaus, Chip, Greb, Yarosz, Soose [and Burley had he gotten his shot]), welter (Zivic), lightweight (Angott), featherweight (Wilson) and bantamweight(Marino). Not to mention the innumerable top ranking contenders.

So maybe there is something good in throwing in your fighter with tough, experienced pros and applying a "sink or swim" edict to their careers. It sure worked in the Smoky City! :good

 

Cheers...Don't be sorry. This was a fun match up to try to analyze. I have to agree with SH89 with all the points he made...except for the winner I'm afraid.

Both guys give each other problems and I can see like SH pointed out that Marshall's looser style and powerful counters getting to Conn. But whereas Conn's style is more suited to stationary fighters...so too is Marshall's. Conn demonstrated against Louis he knew how to judge distance, circling on the outside jabbing, then coming behind that to snuff out the counters on the inside. One thing about Conn that goes unnoticed is that he had the core strength to push Louis back. That would play a big factor here. Marshall it appears, likes to step in, then the bombs fly...getting the opponent to duck into a big left hook. Alot of the time Conn circled to his own left, and unless Marshall never misses with that lead right...he will leave himself wide open to Conn's counter left hook and follow-ups potentially every time he takes to set up that pet combo.
With that said, I think it would be some what close...but think Conn is a winner here because he can either circle on the outside or push Marshall in the clinches, not letting him dig in those heels to get those bombs off in most instances.
Conn UD.

 

I would tend to cringe hard to say the least throwing a pimply teen in with a killer like Oscar Rankins.
That type of stuff takes a toll on a fighter.
The last time i had dinner with Nathen Liff i showed him a Harry Keck article criticizing Johnny Rays very steep matchmaking and teenage wars put on Billy.
Natie Agreed.
You can have a very shot 28 yrl old fighter on your hands that way.

 

The Billy Conn from Nov, 1938 to the first Joe Louis bout in June 1941, beats any version of Lloyd Marshall, so HIGHLY regarded was handsome Billy. Conn was on a roll during this stretch, beating everyone he met during this period.
Consider his victims.
Solly Krieger 2
Fred Apostoli 2
Melio Bettina 2 [drew with jimmy Bivins at MSG, I saw]
Gus Lesnevich 2
Lee Savold 1 [prime left-hooker]
Bob Pastor 1 k kod Lem Franklin]
Gunnar Barlund 1 [kod big Buddy Baer]
And gave Joe Louis absolute hell for 13 rds.
This Billy Conn, fast, tough and durable, beats any version of Lloyd Marshall, nor most likely most any LH in history...

 

I must say that I'm a bit envious that you knew and dined with Nate "Young" Liff. He is quoted quite a bit in Roy McHugh's manuscript "When Pittsburgh was a Fight Town". I'm doing a final proofread of it before we send it to a publisher. It's phenominal.

I guess Johnny Ray was just subjecting Billy to what he himself had to go through when he was coming up and getting thrown in with vastly more experienced opposition (like Patsy Brannigan) when he barely had a year under his belt.

Again, what you are saying isn't incorrect. It just seems like that dangerous formula, which has spelled the doom for many a fighter over the decades, worked very well in Pittsburgh. Maybe it's something in the water:smoke

 

Befreinding Natie was a distinct pleasure.
I was lucky to find such a strong remnant of Harry Greb era Pittsburgh so late in the game.
Speaking of "Young Liff" I read to Natie an account of one of his fights wherein Florent "Gibby" Gibson describes the ring action as follows.
"Young Liff" and........opponent name escapes me...
fought one another with such ferocity you'd a thought they wanted to buy each other flowers"

We both had a good laugh!

 

Nice match-up!

I'm glad that Marshall is in the Hall of fame after being ignored for years. He has gotten the respect he deserves in recent years. With that said that doesn't mean he would definately win vs. Conn.

Marshall beat Ken Overlin, Teddy Yarosz, Lou Brouillard, Shorty Hogue, Charley Burley, Ezzard Charles, Anton Christoforidis, Jake Lamotta, Holman Williams, Joey Maxim, and Tommy Farr among others....

... he also lost to some of these guys... sometimes by KO. He also lost to Jimmy Bivins and Archie Moore among others (no shame in that though).

I really want to pick Marshall but Conn definately had the talent to win as well.

 

bump