So where does Hopkins rank now all-time?

There' nothing wrong with mw Hopkins not fighting lhw Jones.

It's just that Hopkins himself mentioned rematch many times making some believe it was Jones who was ducking a rematch.

And he did rematched Jones only when Jones was competely shot.

And still Hop's performance in that fight was totally disgraceful.

 

The problem is Griffin was getting knocked out anyway, regardless of the obscure ending. So painting it as Griffin (dominating), which he didn't, and Jones needing to foul to when, which he didn't, isn't truthful

I don't agree Hopkins improved that much as a technician, or was necessarily a better technician than Toney. Harding was a quality technician, who actually gave a few problems though. Griffin in beating Jones and Toney twice holds 3 better wins than Hopkins

You're talking bollox. Jones Jr (a small LHW who is naturally smaller than Hopkins) and Calzaghe were the same size as Hopkins and he turned down career high money against both. He also didn't want any of Reggie Johnson or Otis Grant, he also didn't want any of Chad Dawson. He ducked Dawson for years, yes he fought Pascal who was clearly a class below after Pascal got a fluke win, it doesn't mean he didn't avoid Dawson, Dawson was the best contender/champions from after he beat Adamek in 2007 onwards. He only took the Dawson fight after it was contracted to him in the Pascal fights and then he faked injury

 

Can't agree on that.

As far as pure skill is concerned Hop is right up there with the best.

And personally i can't think of 100-200 fighters that would have beaten Hop H2H, probably even if that list includes light heavyweights.

 

He didn't need to foul, but he did, and it wasn't an accident.

I disagree with everything you've written. Little point in discussing it further.

 

Me neither.

They are about on par i'd say.

Harding was a good technical fighter who beat Tarver in the elimination bout to get a shot Jones' titles.

I remember reading Jones trained very little for that fight and could not get himself motivated for Harding.

If i remember correctly Jones noticed Harding's injury and punched Harding's arm deliberately for a couple of rounds.

Except that moment one of the most boring and lackluster fights from Jones.

To be fair Toney fights ended in a very controversial decisions.

 

He improved.

I don't deny boxing is all about perspectives, but I'm pretty sure I could get all the best trainers of the day to agree with me.

Freddie Roach certainly does.

 

Technically he was already a total package.

From the earliest bouts he was very, very good.

You can say he improved tactically, yes. Although that's an interesting subject.

And as his body aged he adjusted his style extremely well.

 

A Hopkins fan complaining about fouling atsch Hopkins is the biggest fouler in the history of the sport, see 4mins onwards

[ame]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GLt4cnV1X7o[/ame]

 

I do agree with you that Toney and Hopkins are on a similar tier, but they were entirely different.

Toney loaded up on his back foot, firing pull counters over his low left hand, shoulder rolling. His weapons were these counter rights, his Cali jab, and what we call a slung left hook on his back foot.

Hopkins is at his best coming in. His single rights are lead pushed off the toe, he boxes on the balls of both feet, he clinches tactically and works very well in them, and he works at a middle rage perfectly.

Both James and Bernard are incredible effective, but for entirely different reasons. Toney is far more the epitome of a black Philly slickster, he embodied the style of slick pull countering and being heavy on your back leg that was really coming into popularity while I was growing up.

Hopkins evolved from being a fine textbook boxer-puncher to being a very unique entity. I call him a technical master today because he does very little out and wrong, as Eddie Futch taught me was wrong: Bad foot placement, staying on center, dropping opposite hands with shots, turning the shoulder without the waist and the foot, countering opposite side, etc.

I can agree that tactical improvement was way steeper, but he started making the above mistakes less and less with age, and even today(Or three years ago when I saw first hand), he nitpicks his own style ruthlessly, whereupon the supremely relaxed and assured Toney has never given a rats ass and is prone to losing fights he shouldnt for that reason.

 

Bernard is dirty as hell. Gratuitously.

Roy knocked Griffin out illegally in anger.

Both facts, both not okay.

 

GOAT middles? definately top 10.
His style is a bit boring, but his longevity at elite level competition is only approached by George Foreman and Archie Moore.

 

What makes you think jones was smaller than hopkins? The fact he fought almost all of his career at a higher weight?

He failed to make a deal enticing enough for him to jump two divisions to face the best man in the world, how the **** is that a duck?

Joe was nobody in 02. Maybe you weren't following boxing back then but he was seen as a paper champ up until he beat lacy. Infact he wasn't considered a top 5 p4p until he beat mikel, guess who fought him next once he'd established his superstar status? An inactive 43 year old man named hopkins.

Beating dawson consistently over 10 rounds is no fluke. Pascal was, without doubt, the top lhw when hopkins twice fought him. As soon as hopkins had the belt he defended against chad. Despite the ppv absolutely bombing he takes a paycut to fight chad and settle the score.

You're a better poster than this so I must conclude you're trolling.

 

That's a good post, Magna.

 

It's not that Hop is a dirty fighter it's that how he behaved when he got fouled in return is what turned many people down from cheering for him.

 

1. In terms of complete boxers maybe, in terms of overall technical skillset Toney rates higher

2. I think Hardink is underrated, he goes onto have a much better career if he doesn't suffer long term shoulder injuries. A guy who beats Tarver and gives Jones his toughest fight, motivated or not has to be respected. He just wasn't the same after his should was ruined

3. Well yes, but either way and close, still a better opponent than Hopkins has a win over anyway it's diced